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Ep 39: Vices, Escapes & Addictions: Pleasures Need Not Be Guilty!




What if pleasures didn’t have to be guilty? Janelle and Andrea discuss their own navigation of various vices over the years including sugar, nail-biting, social media, alcohol and television…then discuss mindfulness, addictions and impulse control for good measure. And there’s a nod to Glennon Doyle, Sam Harris, GI Joe, The Today Show and Little House on the Prairie. You’ll hear:


-How Andrea turned Acts of Productivity into a reward

-Why Janelle has never owned a television

-How simply noticing our cravings can negate them

-Why happy hour cultural conditioning still bites Andrea in the ass

-Social media hacks that have actually worked


TRANSCRIPT:

Andrea: Hi, Janelle.

Janelle: Hi, Andrea.

Andrea: Welcome Bravehearts to Permission to be Human. I saw this reader board the other day and here's what it said. It's okay to fall apart. Tacos do it all the time and we still love them. And I was like, yes, I believe that it's okay to fall apart. It's okay to be in pieces. It's okay to be not all together all the time.

It's okay to not look put together all the time. That was a little piece of wisdom from a little Mexican joint on Federal.

Janelle: Nice, nice I was in DC for the weekend and my friend came to dinner on the last night and she's like, I have lost all ability to coordinate an outfit. And so she was in her slippers and then I could down vest and it's like not matching pants. And she was just like, no more, I can't put any more thought into this, she was done.

And I was like, great, and then the hostess looked at her, cause we're at the restaurant, the hotel, looked down at her slippers, which were white, fuzzy with stars on them, and she just walked right past her, and walked right in, cause she's like, they're shoes. They're counting as shoes.

Andrea: Got it.

Janelle: It wasn't a no shoe policy.

Andrea: Over, but that's it.

Janelle: Yes. so yeah, so sometimes, it's a slipper in a restaurant kind of day.

Andrea: Yeah, it's just amazing to me how. Much thought I used to put into what I was gonna look like and then

Janelle: Leave the house.

Andrea: I mean, yeah. At a certain point, that was a long, long time ago. remember getting here and being like, oh, I don't have to wear earrings and makeup to the grocery store. What a fucking concept.

Janelle: Because where were you coming from?

Andrea: I was coming from college basically at that point. definitely growing up it was like

Janelle: Anywhere in Illinois, right? That's where you

Andrea: I wasn't, yeah. And, you know, in college, of course, I was wearing less. was worrying about my outfits less. But still, anywhere I went, I could bump into someone who I knew or thought was cute So, there wasn't a complete release on that.

I don't think until I started going to Safeway here when I lived on Emerson and Evans. And I just had this, , realization. it definitely made life easier. Have you always been like that?

Janelle: Yeah, I think so. It didn't matter what I was wearing to the grocery store. Yeah, that feels pretty True for me. I had this really weird habit in high school where I'd go get my hair cut and then I wouldn't let her dry it. I was so, like, oh, all natural.

Andrea: Really? Yeah. No blow drying? I,

Janelle: I don't even know what possessed me for a couple of years that I did that. I mean, I definitely have cared about how I looked for sure. But not going to the grocery store was fine.

Andrea: Like my attitudes for so much of my early dating life was like, you can meet someone anywhere. Romance can happen anywhere. I can spot a cute stranger anywhere. So it is always about to happen.

Janelle: I do think that maybe it's Midwest thing, but I definitely think it's a Southern thing.

Andrea: For sure. Yeah. And we weren't quite to that level, but it was kind of like, yeah, you should look at all the time. Who knows you're going to run into. 

Janelle: Disney put so much pressure on generations and generations of women to always look good all the time. Cause of rom com could happen at any moment.

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. I'm going to be at the start of my romcom at any moment. Just wait. It's a little bit much. All right. So today we're talking about. Guilty pleasures and vices. And I really want to take away the guilty from the pleasure. How horrible is that?

Janelle: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, we were talking about that earlier today, if there's pleasure, no guilt, just fucking enjoy it.

Andrea: How can you get rid of that guiltiness?

Janelle: Guilt or shame. Some of you might have shame too.

Andrea: That's true. So a vice is defined. we don't say Webster's anymore, but when I Googled it, advice is defined as a habit that's regarded as a weakness in someone's character, A guilty pleasure, as I said, I don't really like this phrase, is, something that we do that we really love that maybe is unhealthy for us. That was the urban dictionary definition. And then I also want to go a little bit into addiction too, and that is defined as physically and mentally dependent on a particular substance and unable to stop taking it without incurring adverse effects. I define it as something that has power over me.

Janelle: Power beating, that, so you are not in control.

Andrea: Correct. Yeah. And the reason I wanted to do this episode was probably because of my own overcoming of different pleasures and vices. And then I had heard Glennon Toyle talk about taking the edge off on her podcast, We Can Do Hard Things. And This phrase is sometimes what people use when they talk about having a glass of wine at the end of the day, or taking a gummy, or watching TV, or engaging in one of these activities, and it just, you know, just takes the edge off.

Janelle: I definitely used to say that all the time when I drank. Or I felt, I feel it, I was like, oh, there's an intensity running through my system, let me just have a glass of wine.

EP39 Andrea: Sure. Really common. And nothing wrong with it. There's definitely like, no judgment in this episode. But it did make me think about, what if I didn't take the edge off? And this is what she suggested. What if you sat in the discomfort? Because the edge is really where the learning begins. And I, I agree with that. So it made me wonder what were these vices really about? Are they scratching an itch?

Are they escaping the life we can't face? Is it comfort when we're feeling anxious? It's just a way to fill up our time with business because we can't sit still. I'd say probably all of the above. But the funny thing is that so much of life is a distraction to keep us out of the present moment. I would say for years now, I have been trying to practice staying in that discomfort and staying in the uncomfortable and getting comfortable in that in between, without following the impulse to have the vice or the pleasure. So that means, , pausing between bites when you're at dinner,

Janelle: Not being on your phone when you're at dinner.

Andrea: Right?

Janelle: I can't, even by yourself.

Andrea: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. can even mean just like slowing down on my walk between the coffee shop and my house, right? That's not a guilty pleasure, but that's like being uncomfortable in the in between, They're like, oh, I'm between the things I like, and so I'm just gonna hurry to get past this point so I can get to it. So it's really about sitting with that itchy, scratchy craving. So we'll get into the vices here. the first one is television. I mean, it can be an escape. I've been watching TV my whole life. , I grew up definitely in a movie quoting household. And in the morning we listened to Brian Gumbel and Jane Polley on the today show.

And in the evenings it was, , Michael Landon and Melissa Gilbert and a little house in the Prairie. And there were far less channels and I didn't have a TV in my room, or a laptop or a phone at that point. we had a little screen, three channels. , it seemed like small fingerling potatoes, for sure.

Like, no big deal. Even now, I'm just like, that is fucking nothing.

Janelle: Nothing. I totally agree.

Andrea: So if everyone, if I want to absolve some guilt, like,

Janelle: We had the rotor, we didn't even have a remote, I think, in the

Andrea: Yeah, just like a, like a channel turner. , like something you had to hold on to and turn.

Janelle: Get up, go to the TV.

Andrea: My gosh, remember that? So, the television. definitely did contribute to my current career.

It helped me become a better writer. I learned about timing, stories, humor, writing, performance, all of which helped me today with my job is my main passion is self expression. So it was an art form and I loved it. And I don't, I don't really regret watching television. It has taught me about humanity, but now I just try to be pickier and be a little more discerning about what I'm watching.

And so I also still crave an escape, right? Like okay, how can I turn my mind off? I just want to turn my mind off. a great thing would be to do meditation, but , I do want a distraction and, I wouldn't say it's a major problem for me now. I have definitely lost interest in a lot of it.

I just watch things here and there, but it's been that in the past. And I think it does serve, , a lot of people in this way. just as a means of escape. 

Janelle: Yeah, I've been learning to like, figure out the distinction between distraction and escape. Because I do think pleasure can fall into escape. there's pleasure, and there can be an intentional escape. there's like another layer in there at times, but for me with TV, as you know, by my lack of pop cultural references, I'm not a TV watcher, but I did grow up in a TV watching household.

I also grew up with the Today Show and Little House on the Prairie and PBS and Saturday morning cartoons and nonstop sports, baseball season, football season, tennis, golf, the Olympics.

Andrea: So funny, when I read this, I'm like, what? , I so would not have expected that from you. And you did not attach to sports.

Janelle: Correct. I was surrounded by it. all the time. I still am. When I go to my dad's, I am when I go to my brother's, TV is everywhere all the time.

Andrea: And you played volleyball, and you mountain biked.

Janelle: Yes. So this is what ended up happening for me in that realm is that I became an athlete and I realized that, Oh, I'm a participant, not a spectator.

Andrea: You like that better.

Janelle: But then I went away to college. And I stopped watching TV. I didn't have one in my, dorm room and I never had one again.

Andrea: That's amazing.

Janelle: I haven't owned a TV my whole adult life. That was for me. I've had one in my house when it was an Airbnb. But the reason I don't watch TV is is that I figured out that TV is literally like a drug for me.

When I am in the presence of a TV that is on, I can't look away. I get totally absorbed. I can't talk to anyone or even notice someone's talking to me. It's like I'm hypnotized. I don't even like eating at restaurants. I have a TV at the bar, and if I do, I try to sit at a chair facing away from the screen.

I figured this out very early on, in college. I remember I I found a sticker that said kill your television and then I bought it and gave it to my brother. , and he of course put it proudly on his TV that he watched every day. what I figured out was that ultimately I would rather talk to people than watch TV and so I cut TV out and that means watching it on my laptop too.

I don't have a subscription to Netflix or Hulu or YouTube. I don't watch the TV shows, and there's a cost, I'm not distracted by it and I miss out on a lot of cultural references, a lot of jokes, a lot of being in the know about what's going on. I decided that that was cost was worth it. but I do allow myself the pleasure of watching America's Got Talent, Britain's Got Talent, and American Idol clips On YouTube. So I don't have a subscription, but I just go and like I look through and I just love, love, love watching amateurs sing and dance.

So you think you can dance is another one. and I'm a sucker for the underdog story yeah, so that, that brings me joy. So I can be watching someone saying, and I'm like,

Andrea: Right? So happy.

Janelle: Get so happy. Yeah.

Andrea: But you said something about escape. , there's a different layer between escape and distraction. Escape feels more intentional, maybe? Is that what you're saying?

Janelle: Yeah, that's where I'm at with it now. Because sometimes I'm like, you know what? I just was on for a long time and I do need to decompress And so a movie can do that. There's different ways to do it. And so there's times where I'm looking at my phone and I'm like, Oh, I'm just distracted and I'm scrolling.

Or and there's times that I'm like, Oh, I know that I'm going to scroll for a little bit because I just need to like, come down from something but I'm aware then I'm like, Oh, okay, like, is that five minutes? Is that 10 minutes? There's a noticing that I'm trying to pay attention to because there's a lot of beautiful things in TV.

There's a lot of beautiful things. And so some of them are really, like I just said, like I get so much joy out of watching all these talented people on these shows. So it's not like it's all bad, it's just that when the consumption prevents me from doing something else that I actually love more.

Andrea: Yeah, exactly. Okay. I think there is legitimate reason for escape sometimes. You just have to manage it, just like anything else. You're just managing it, timing it, being aware of it.

Janelle: So what's your next advice, Andrea?

Andrea Well, it's not much of one anymore, but I definitely liked to drink in my 20s and 30s. It was a very social thing for me. I really never had any my fridge, but I tend to do it when I went out. And then it tapered off in my forties. There was too much hangover. It wasn't worth it. I had a small child and in Colorado, I was always fighting off dehydration anyway. 

But I also just never had a big taste for alcohol. I always wanted it. To be masked by big, sweet flavors, Or I wanted something to make sure that I , wasn't tasting how strong it was. and I remember thinking like when women would get together in some of my circles for a happy hour or a white night and I was just like, why do we have to drink?

Why does alcohol have to be associated with this? so I mostly like, I kind of phased it out of my life and gummies have taken over. And to be honest, those are all city hydrating, but no hangover so much better. But I still feel that cultural conditioning because it's so strong. He's like, I still associate having a drink with fun, relaxing, socializing. And even though I rarely drink, I can fall into that trap occasionally. If I'm with people and I'm at a bar and, I just order a drink and then 13 later I have a drink and it wasn't that great and I have a slight headache and we're leaving.

And so , I can fall into it and I think it's you know, it's like anything else if it's managed correctly it's fine. But I'm just glad I'm not that interested anymore. 

Janelle: Some of my story overlaps a little bit, and then it veers, which is that I also drank a lot in my 20s and 30s. The difference is, I loved to drink, I loved the social outlet of it, and I loved taste of it, like I loved pairing alcohol to food, white wine versus red wine, tequila versus gin, port versus Bailey's, etc.

What was the alcohol that fit the moment, the culture that I was in, the meal that I was having, it's something that I really got a lot of enjoyment out of. and in fact, I don't like sweet drinks because it masks the flavor of the alcohol. and coming from an Irish background, everyone I knew drank, even my grandmother on my Canadian side drank rye.

So there's always scotch in the house, there's beer in the house, but I would say it wasn't in excess. , my dad would have a beer with dinner every night. And then in my 20s and 30s, like at any family gathering, there was always alcohol at any social gathering, always alcohol. I had tons of alcohol in my house. It was always, always around and I'm very social on alcohol. I like the way a drink makes me feel. I could drink a lot. I've definitely been hungover at times in my life, I remember at my dad's 75th birthday party, we had a big party. He's an identical twin.

Hi, Uncle Jim. And we rented a bar, an Irish bar, our friends, my brother's friends, like all the friends, cousins, we all got together. so it was 75th and the twins. Meaning my dad and my uncle, we closed the bar down at 4 a. m. Right? And the only two cars that got towed that whole night were my dad and my uncle's.

And so they were up at 8 a. m. trying to figure out how to get their cars back. And meanwhile, , my friend's in his bed, , so hungover. , dying from trying to keep up I remember him saying, he's like, I just wish I had some Irish in me so I was around it and it was, I'm not going to say that we didn't have anyone in our family who didn't drink too much potentially, but it wasn't like we didn't have any like scary alcoholics.

So I wasn't faced with that. But mostly, it was conditioned that it was really hard for me to say no if someone was offering me alcohol. , and alcohol was always around. And there were definitely moments that I wished I drank less. and sometimes, like, in my group of friends, some could just keep going like all night long and then I would hit my threshold and then it was like, do I keep going or do I stay?

And so I was, I was in turmoil at different times. Usually when it got to be the point I was like too tired, it's like really tired and it was late night. so it was a relationship that I've had and it was like, I was always tempering it with how much am I drinking, but I didn't think about never drinking, 

Until I met my ex. he didn't drink. And that was totally weird and something for me to navigate. but he tried drinking more and I started drinking less and we, we navigated that and I realized I didn't want him to start, I thought I wanted him to be drinking. And then realized I didn't but really it wasn't until January 2020 when I did dry January That my relationship to alcohol started to change and I just wanted to give a shout out to anyone who's doing dry January Because we're in January right now when we're recording Especially one of my oldest and dearest friends who's listening to this podcast that I'm so proud of you that you're on day 29 of not drinking and I know it's such a big fucking deal so anyone Who is on that road.

Whatever you're listening to this, it's going to be many weeks later. I hope that you're still doing exactly what you want to be doing. And that your relationship started to change. but it wasn't because I stopped drinking. in January that I started to drink less. It was because I micro dosed mushrooms every weekend that dry January that I did it, and I felt so expansive and elevated that drinking alcohol seemed much less appealing.

Andrea: Totally. Try different things.

Janelle: And I was someone, right, just say no generation, I did pretty, pretty much no drugs

Andrea: Yeah. Same. for a long, long

Janelle: For a long, long time. Because drugs are bad. They're going to kill you. full stop. they're all in one bucket. Pot is the same as coke, which is the same as heroin, which is the same as meth. They're all bad. Total fucking miseducation. My childhood. I mean, it did keep me off of drugs for a very long time, probably when I was most impressionable, 

Same. Same for me. you know, I had my first, , mushrooms in 2018, so 2020, COVID really helped with this, became the year I started exploring a lot with psychedelics, and what happened over time was that I wasn't drinking as often. It did take me a long time to break the association to wanting to pair alcohol with food this meal.

I want to have this wine with it or I'm having, tacos. I want to have the margarita.

Andrea: So interesting.

Janelle: Now I would say I'm someone who doesn't drink much

Andrea: Let me just say this to me about that pairing though. It's just interesting because obviously, if you're a foodie of any kind and you're enjoying the taste of fish with the white wine, I understand that and it's just so interesting how, for someone who doesn't, who I don't like the taste of alcohol, I'm like.

Don't eat. That's ruining the entire point of the 12 margarita. honestly, if I would go to happy hour, I would just drink because eating ruins the buzz. And so then what is the point at all?

Janelle: Because it amplifies the flavor profiles.

Andrea: I'm sure you're right. I totally get it. I get why people do it and I get why it's popular.

And it really is, for me, like, I don't get some kind of buzz off of the alcohol, then it was completely pointless because I don't like the taste of the alcohol. 

Janelle: I would still get buzzed and I would eat. 

Andrea: Yeah, it's just like, I wouldn't drink enough to get, like the, I mean, the, you know, because the food kills the buzz, did you never experience that? That's so funny. Yeah. Maybe, maybe you didn't. 

Janelle: Yeah, I mean, I would still get buzzed.

Andrea: I mean, it's an old, like, 20 something sort of attitude, But still, even now, it's like, if I'm gonna get the drink, make sure I have an empty stomach. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. that is definitely not my thought process at all. It's sort of like, oh, we're having a meal. This is what I would want to drink. so you don't drink much now.

Janelle: Yes. cause saying I don't drink at all is like too black and white in my system. And I like living in the gray.

Andrea: Oh, that's a good one.

Janelle: Yeah, so like the way I discern when I'm gonna drink is this. Uhm is when it will enhance a social situation. For example, I'm seeing an old friend and they drink, Or we're having oysters and a glass of white wine pairs so perfectly. but then I mostly limit myself to one glass. I find one glass can enhance the magic of a situation for me and two glasses or more, the magic starts to diminish but if the person I am with isn't drinking, then I won't drink.

Andrea: Tell me more about that.

Janelle: Because it's a social situation, then that's why I'm doing it. But if I'm by myself, then I don't need the alcohol.

Andrea: But if the person you're with isn't drinking, you're catering more to their taste. to their preferences than yours? 

Janelle: My preference is to not drink,

Andrea: Okay.

Janelle: Right? So my preference is to not drink.

Andrea: That's the baseline. Right. And then you're just going to up level it from there. Right. Uh huh. Got it.  And if the person you're with isn't drinking right, then there's no need to drink. I see. Gotcha.

Janelle: Year old dad, we'll often have a scotch while we're watching TV, whatever sports is on. Or And then, yeah, and we'll have a scotch before bed.

Andrea: Scotch before bed. Yeah. That's classic. There's something romantic, of course, about that.

Janelle: Okay. So next vice, how do you handle the social media phone situation? We talked about that a little bit. 

Andrea: It's the biggest addiction that I have for sure, I look at my phone. Doesn't have any notifications. Somehow I don't trust the notifications that I've set up, so I'm just gonna go ahead and look at it anyway because what if something has shown up and the notification didn't work? I mean, what the fuck am I thinking?

I don't know. I've tried leaving my phone in my car. I just retrieve it. I've tried using apps to keep me off social media. Setting a timer for focus tasks does help me stay away from my phone. I was a holdout. I did not plug my phone in next to my bed for. Probably maybe like around the pandemic is when I started putting it next to my bed.

Like I kept it in the other room at a little alarm clock. I just felt proud, like not to have it by my bed. And it was a little less distracting. I wouldn't get it on it immediately when I got up and, you know, that's over now and the phone's next to my bed. I think just ultimately this is all, it constantly comes back to the fact that we have to be disciplined. We can't rely on anyone but ourselves to manage these habits. yeah, I would say it's the worst. It is the thing I'm most addicted to. And when I don't have it, it feels like I've lost, I had mine fixed and it took three hours instead of 45 minutes the other day. And yeah, I mean, I, you know, I've found stuff to do, but I went to get my phone.

Like. 15 times, to take a picture, to use it, to get on it. And yeah, it's really, it's really challenging. And I think, I think the only key is what you talked about earlier today is if you don't want to buy something, well then don't go in a store. I know that if it's in front of me, I'm going to grab it.

And so if I can get it out of my sight, then I can't grab it. But that's an imposed. know, it's really an opposed rule. And that's why I mentioned in here about Sprouts, who does not carry plastic bags anymore. Because they're like, no, you've got to bring your own bag. And so they're just, they're forcing you into the situation.

They're forcing you to be a better person. while I don't always like laws that are forcing me into, you know, I feel like That shouldn't determine what you do. We should let people do to themselves what they, what they prefer. Um, yeah, I found that I, I have to impose those rules on myself if I want to get off my phone because when it's sitting there, it's pretty hard.

Janelle: Totally, totally agree. And this is definitely my biggest addiction. I recently deleted 160, 000. Yes, really emails off my phone and turned off all notifications and tried to unsubscribe from all marketing emails. I didn't use social apps, you know, Facebook and Instagram for a while, but. I find myself scrolling a lot again as we're on Instagram now for the podcast.

Um, I have thought about trying to only post on Instagram from my laptop, so that it's not on my phone, but I'm still navigating this relationship. Jamie wheel has a list of things of like, you know, he's like top biohacks and I do actually most of them with the exception of don't look at your screens for an hour before bed and an hour after I wake up and that I definitely do.

Like one of the things in the morning after my like in between state, which I love, I'm like half asleep, half awake. And then once I like wake up, then like the first thing I do is grab my phone I actually find pleasure in that and given like the leisureliness of my morning, like I haven't like I've been like, Oh, this is like a waste of my time.

Like there's something there, but the compulsion throughout the rest of the day is definitely present. but you just saying like, if I don't see it, cause I just told you, I don't go shopping. my way of dealing with like not wanting to go to Starbucks was just like to not go to Starbucks. So I don't have to buy coffee and, Oh, I don't want to go shopping.

I don't want to buy something. So I'm not going to go shopping. I don't know that I've really tried like, like locking my phone away.

Andrea: Yeah, in the co working space, I just joined the process. They have these little safes in the front for your cell phone if you want to put it in there and lock it up. which can be handy for sure. one of the apps, there's so many apps, but one that I use for Facebook that worked very well, I don't really get on Facebook at all anymore.

Just, I click on it and then it just, It says it's time to take a deep breath and it clears my entire screen and then it brings another color down my entire screen and it says now you can make a wise decision. Do you want to go to Facebook or do you not want to go to Facebook? And now I'm, when I'm going to Facebook, it's for a reason.

And so I usually am saying yes, but for a while I was just clicking on it just out of habit. Just like I pick up my phone and hit it. this is what's happening with Instagram now, except I think I'm ahead of the game. mean, we are posting with Instagram, but lately, when I see the Instagram thing, I now associate it with a few things. first thing I associate it with is expressing myself, which sometimes I want to do. Which is great if it feels authentic. But the other two things I associate it with are, Oh, I should be posting. Should, should, should, should. other people are doing this. Why aren't I doing this? I'm behind. I'm not relevant.

I'm not up to speed and then Instagram is the new place where I will scroll. Yeah, the scrolling is like, oh my god, that's Luckily, I don't love it enough that I do it for more than five minutes, but I'll do it for five minutes Be like, oh my god, what am I doing? And then turn it off. Yeah feels really lethal and as a result I I have not Gone to it very much lately but like any drug, it can be really hard do just a little bit.

Janelle: Right. Exactly. And just so you know, like Bravehearts, Andrea and I worked on this podcast for 18 months before we actually published it. And one of the really big hurdles that we had to overcome was that neither of us were on. Social media prior to doing the podcast like we had both kind of eliminated Instagram and Facebook at that point for years and it was like, Oh, do we really do we have to be on this on these platforms? And so it was a real big debate that we had.

So resistant for months and months and months I give a shout out to Lucien who like really just like sat with us Through the turmoil and it was ultimately he's like, this is just where people are this is where your audience is So if you want to do a podcast and you don't have a huge marketing budget, then how are people going to find out about you?

And so there's kind of like a reality to the fact of that. And so we have, you know, come up with our best way of being as authentic as we can around it in terms of how often we're posting and what we're posting. But you know, we're not getting all dressed up and. perfect every time we do a reel or stuff like that, but it is, I just want to, I think I'm just saying this to point out that we don't, we didn't make the decision lightly to be on Instagram for the podcast.

Andrea: And you'll see that we don't post every day. Sometimes we don't post every week and we're trying to make a rule that when we want to post, when we feel like posting, when it feels good to us, when it feels authentic and because there's two of us, we just, you know, we try to trade off a little bit. But that's why you might not see us posting all the time because we don't want to be on social media all the time.

Janelle: Exactly. Okay. Looks like sugar is up next. What's your relationship to that?

Andrea: Yes. Oh my God. I'm hiding. , this has been a big one for me. I'd say it was firmly an addiction for me for a long time. I've always had a thing for it. I've always felt guilty for eating sweets because they were bad for me. They would make me fat. They'll give me cavities. They're unhealthy.

It's a slippery slope. I've definitely consumed some pints of ice cream in my life, that's for sure. But it never was like so out of hand that I needed an intervention or that my weight was a massive issue. But I just knew that it was something that had a little bit of power over me, it was hard to stop. And at some point in the last five years I became less interested. And it was really weird. it's good news, bad news. Like it's so great. Cause I don't have this addiction anymore and it's better for my body and it's better for my mood and in my, my ups and downs, but it's also this loss. I used to get a lot of pleasure out of sitting down and eating a piece of pie and now I just have like two bites and I'm like, meh, it's too sweet.

I don't want it. I feel like crap. , it doesn't scratch an itch for me anymore. And so a few things shifted. maybe four years ago, maybe even six or seven years ago paramenopause started and that's when I lost my real craving for it. I still liked it, but not as much. And then I got some wind of the sugar, which is such a duh now, but like, Oh, it's not really about the sugar.

It's just about me escaping my anxiety or being distracted from my discomfort or my boredom or my loneliness. was like a need for a hit, like a drug. And when I realized that I would like, at least I was aware of it. I didn't stop doing it, but I was like, Hmm, what is that about? what's the deal with that?

And you know, I remember finding out that sugar is more addictive than cocaine.

Janelle: Didn't know that. That's crazy.

Andrea: I know, like, I keep checking that. I'm like, is that really true? then it'll go into this, Google will go into this thing about when tested with rats. I'm like, great. And then I lost a bunch of weight, in 2018, 19?

And that's a whole other story. It was all quite healthy, though there's something wrong with me. I just, my whole body shifted. And I liked that shift. it felt healthy to me and I wanted to maintain that more. And so that drove me to, I think, start eating more healthily.

Janelle: Did the weight loss come from because perimenopause and you're eating less sugar.

Andrea: No.

Janelle: It's a different story.

Andrea: No and now I listen sometimes to Sam Harris. He has a podcast called waking up and he's the host of making sense. And he's a New York times bestselling author. He has these moments that are part of his app that surprise you throughout the day to try to bring you back to the now. And his last one, he spoke about. Just watching and noticing the rise of the craving you might have for whatever it is that is your go to and just watching it come up then sitting with it, sitting in the discomfort. It could be 9 seconds or it could be 7 minutes. But ultimately, just like a thought, that craving is just going to dissipate again.

Even if you're trying to hold on to it, it is going to dissipate again. Because Other thoughts are coming in you're feeling the wind and then your phone rings and then you see a bird and just like the nature of life keeps things rising and falling. And so he talks about how you have to work really to keep something in your mind.

Otherwise it inevitably falls away. And this concept helped me a lot. Cause when I'm feeling anxious, I try to get to the root of it doing a body scan. Okay. What is it that I really want? Am I hungry? Am I bored? Am I thirsty? Do I need a walk? Do I need a nap? And you're not always good at it, but if I can try to tease it out and pick it apart, then it brings me back to the now and I'm not going to do something out of just that kind of old impulse or habit. Yeah, what about you and sugar?

Janelle: This one's different for me. While I love sweets, somehow I missed out on the binge sweet gene. I often think it was because we weren't allowed soda or sugar cereal as kids, although I don't know if that's true. so I can have sweets in the house and I'll only have one small bit of something. I think where my addiction, if I look back on it now, Is that I could go for like Compulsive eating in a way, which was that If i'm hungry, then I can like eat eat eat eat eat non stop and then I

Andrea: Even if you're not hungry, you mean? 

Janelle: Let me just think about that for a second. Like I think No, I think it's because i'm hungry but I think like I could be like my hunger would be like compulsive and I wouldn't be like I would like just be eating until It was not and then I would go past the hunger as well. But there was also something even like in a social setting where like the like the eating would overtake my like ability to socialize Kind of thing like I would just be like so focused on the food

Andrea: Yeah, that's interesting.

Janelle: Yeah, and then as far as Yeah, but it's it, you know, I've definitely eaten like, you know a lot of Ice cream at one time, but it's it's an occasional thing. It's not like it's not where the craving is

Andrea: I think though this is, to me, because it makes me think when you were talking about eating, investing in your radiance and eating during the choir potluck last year, where you were like so focused on the food you couldn't socialize because you hadn't eaten.

Janelle: Yes. Like that, that to me is like, it's not an addiction, but like, it's like, there's a power over.

Andrea: Yeah, but it's funny because to me it just feels like really good self care. You're just so tuned in to No, I had to eat right now. The eating is the most important thing. And, and to me, that's, I know that I was conditioned to think. no blame on anyone. Just like my conditioning was like, um, food is so secondary to making sure that person in the corner feels good and to making sure that you look good and making sure that you socialize correctly, like skip a meal, be uncomfortable in your shoes.

That is not the most important. And what you're telling me is like, I'm taking care of myself first. And I think that's good.

Janelle: Yeah. Yeah. I hear what you're saying. I think the, I, like hearing that, I'm like, okay, maybe that was what was happening, but I think that there was a, it still felt like there was something so like compulsive. Yeah. Yeah. There of like eating till beyond my hunger level. And I think because my weight never changed, like I didn't, like, my body didn't express, doesn't express that.

Andrea: God, that's so interesting too. Like,

Janelle Yeah, I know. That just, I lucked out with that one. But anyway, so I don't know. I don't know. But there's, I definitely have a relationship with food that's, that's different now than it used to, than it used to be. But that we're like, oh, I just have to eat everything right now.

Andrea: Yeah, yeah, interesting. Um, so, and like you said, it has a power. Oh, I know, I know, I know, I know what, what I wanted to say. And this is okay. Real time revelations here on the podcast Yeah, great. is that I just recently, recently discovered my relationship. To pain and then my relationship to pleasure and that when there's a denial of pleasure that I have figured out that I do to myself, I don't deserve something.

But another like more subtle way is if I was hungry, And I was out and about and I spoke about this, right. Then I wouldn't go get food. I'd wait till I came home. And so I think really what I was doing was that I was going, I was actually like, Going for so long, not giving myself food, that when the food was in front of me, I was in like starvation mode kind of thing.

And so in that way, it feels like the self care I'm doing now is, as soon as I get hungry, I'm eating. I'm not waiting until I'm so hungry I can't do  anything

There you go, you sort of fixed it. You've resolved it.

Janelle: Yes. 

Andrea: That's really good news.

Janelle: I was aware that I had resolved it in the past few months, but I didn't, but it just got to me to like, oh, but that's the, the compulsion was that I was really, it was going for so long without food

Andrea: Yeah.

Janelle: Where I was did not, I was like subconsciously denying myself.

Andrea: Yeah. And then you were ravenous by the time

Janelle: Yes, ravenous is great word,

Andrea: Okay. So then there's something I want to talk about impulse control a little bit and I just dabble in it, but I Think what I realized in in when we were working on this script was that I? Always felt like I was pretty good at impulse control like I didn't do I Don't know stupid shit or like just I I thought things through I was a planner I didn't do things suddenly, but I also think it is because I Had the impression most of my early, say, first 30 years that, , everyone was watching.

Or my parents were watching, society was watching. I cared about what people thought. And so, that kept me a little more structured. not just being like, I'm just gonna like, smoke up or eat this thing or drive over here or go with this person. Or just like, there was some performative, I wonder if that's part of why I was like, no, no, I better stay on track.

I better stay on track, everyone's watching. But as I got older, I feel like my impulse control has actually gotten worse. cause I'm just like, I'm doing whatever I want. So, there's been a little bit of that, and now I feel like I'm trying to come back a little

Janelle: but talk to me more like what's like when you're saying the impulse control, you're talking about this sugar. What are you talking about?

Andrea: I think it's the sugar, I think it's the shopping, for a while, it's not true now, but sugar, shopping, Just being like, fuck the rules. I'm doing, I've been following my rules for so long. I want permission to not follow the rules. And I just think that impulse, kind of, following the impulse, my own impulse goes along with that.

And it probably, there was probably a pendulum where it like, went a little far for a while,

Janelle: Okay, so the next one, 

Andrea: It's the Bob, the badge of busy, it's the thing that we humans do. Productivity makes us feel accomplished and worthy. It has a lot of power over me. I love being productive. Being lazy is definitely one of the worst insults you could give me. And in the last two years, I've been embracing my feminine energy and I have dramatically reduced my productivity. in an amazing and scary way. chaotic, it's messy, there's lack of goals and structure.

Janelle: Can I just call this out though? I just want to make sure the brave hearts hear this. You've become less productive and extraordinarily more creative in your self expression.


Andrea: Absolutely. yeah, that's the benefit. No doubt about it. and I actually now can turn productivity into a reward, I go and work on my book or I work on my client projects, which is creative, but I probably won't finish it and it's kind of floaty and I'll do some of it and I'll chip away at it.

But I want to get something done. So I go and do those creative projects. And then my reward is that I get to do the laundry. I get to unload the dishwasher. I get to clean out the junk drawer because I like doing that stuff because it makes me feel accomplished and worthy. so I mean, ultimately though.

I would prefer to fucking drop the rope between productivity and worth and that's why I feel like it is kind of a, an addiction or a vice because it's good because it gets things done, but at a high level, it can cut out all of the wonder and the beauty and the joy and the creativity from life.

Janelle: Yes, well I love hearing how you found a way to dance with these energies. and I also think as a generator, or actually you're a manifesting generator, right? Which is a human design reference. I think it's probably correct for you to find a way to get things done, even as you're in your feminine. I've thought a lot about this since I'm a reflector and I'm, I'm watching myself just like remove all distractions, remove all things.

And so like there's so much spaciousness and I'm like, Oh, but that's correct for me. And I don't think that that's, I've been watching you and watching how you've been dancing with You know, creating spaciousness, being creative, and getting things done still feeds your soul. I do agree with you, I'd love to see you drop the tether between worth and productivity, but I think there's something in your makeup that, actually to feel good in your, in your system, that getting things done is part of it. 


Andrea: I'm learning to just weave them together now. That's, that's the goal. I went, you know, as, we often do, I just went one way really far and was not doing much, but I needed to do that to be like, oh, here's my time to sit around, steering off into space, being with myself, I'm going inward, and that was important. Okay. Let's talk about nails now. I mean, I totally bite my nails. I've been biting my nails since I was, since I was conscious enough to bite my nails, um, when I was a child. I definitely have an oral fixation. I see the whites, and I just see a project, basically, and I, try to eliminate. I see the white and I'm like, great, I can do that.

It's just a way to stay productive. even when I'm watching a movie or relaxing or in a pleasure state, then I just get to keep doing, keep producing, keep accomplishing. And remember having this ah ha moment with my therapist. Actually, you know, my husband said it first. I have to give him the credit. He said, I think, you know, what I, what I just said, he's like, yeah, you just want to keep accomplishing things. So you're never going to stop. And that's, you know, that's just your way of continuing to do. And this was a huge aha moment for me at the time. I thought, but just because you figure out why you're doing something doesn't mean the issue goes away.

And initially that made me really sad. I was like, oh, okay. I totally know now. And nothing changed. mean, G. I. Joe used to say that knowing was half the battle. Do you know that?

Janelle: I do know that.

Andrea: Do you know that?

Janelle: Know that reference.

Andrea: Oh my God. yeah, I throw that in when anyone ever, ever says like, now we know. I was like, and knowing is half the battle. But I'd say it's one quarter, more like one quarter of the battle personally, because it's like, okay, awareness is great, but I have not stopped biting my nails. that was like seven years ago. probably that I figured that out. I've tried to quit most of my life. I've been like. Who cares? I mean, it's not, it's not a drug. 

It's not a cigarette. it doesn't cost anything. Then there came a time when it felt dirty and embarrassing. And I thought, wow, this has power over me. Because I can't stop doing it. bad testing nail polish. I did a blood oath. I tried hypnotherapy. I've gone to addiction workshops.

I've put on fake nails for long periods of time, which of course does stop me for that period. And nothing has ever worked. and so it is definitely the, yeah, I would say it's the albatross in my pocket. not big, it's small. I have really tiny little hands and, they're always, you know, they just don't look good.

So yeah, I'll just probably be working on it until I die. Like I always think I'm like, Oh, Maybe this is going to shift my nails, right? Or some outside, some maybe it'll come in inadvertently. 

Janelle: I feel like this is one of those things, like, I would love it if a brave heart just has a report. Report from the fields. Has anyone navigated

Andrea: Yeah. I would love to hear about it. I stopped sucking my thumb when I was five. My mom promised me strawberry shortcake sheets. That totally worked.

Janelle: Have you tried that for your

Andrea: No. That's true. That'd be really good if I got something, if I got to go somewhere, if I stopped. I don't think that would work. I think it's way too deep of a habit by now. 

Janelle: Okay, Bravehearts. Thank you for listening. Any insights on any of your own vices? That's your homework. It's just to reflect. we're all human. That's what we're here.

Andrea: There's no judgment. Like, we all have our things that we like, and we all have reasons we do them, and more aware we can become, that's our first step for any of it. 

Janelle: It's all like an ebb and a flow, to me. And, like, life, like, oh, like, you know, we've talked about, like, Oh, this is how I was for a while, and then something else came in, and something else came in. So,

Andrea: It's true.

Janelle: Yah. So, we're with you. We're human too. 


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