Ep 81: Part 8/12, Bringing Reflections, Death & AI into the Bedroom. (Seriously!) How to Talk about Sex Series

Good news Bravehearts! Rupture and repair can strengthen your relationship! And AI can help. Not even kidding. Janelle and Andrea interview Braveheart, author and passionate ceremonialist, Yana Rumi about the importance of ritual, reflection and curiosity when navigating difficult conversations. Truth: Love is not enough--because it can’t replace self-awareness. Janelle tears up. Andrea had a good cry afterwards. There’s a nod to Artificial Inteligence (a surprising tool for practicing your desires), ISTA, the word “compersion” and the concept of polyamory. You’ll hear:

--Exact instructions for container setting

--Essential Inquiry: Do I want to be connected or do I want to be right?

--How to navigate a mid-conversation trigger

--Why reflection instead of defense will solve 90% of your issues

--How to lead with curiosity, rather than crisis, in every conversation

--Why he ceremonially “killed” his current relationship more than once

--How rupture and repair REALLY DOES strengthen relationships

Yana Rumi’s first book has just been published: Simple Magick of Health & Prosperity: A Practical Guide to a Magickal Life.

Buy here: Simple Magick of Health & Prosperity: A Practical Guide to a Magickal Life

TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 00:01

Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way we got you. We just finished our podcast with Janelle, which you're about to listen to. And yeah, I'm just like, I cried a couple of times, just like listening to just like the grace and the knowledge and the wisdom of which he holds relationships sacred, knowing that they don't like, there's hard parts.

Andrea Enright 01:30

Yeah, there's really hard parts. And, like, there's so many beautiful gems in there. I mean, he talks about starting with curiosity over crisis. He talks about being right or being connected. He talks about relationship death doulas, yeah. He talks about the pattern of repair and actually creating new pathways in your brain around repair and after fighting, you can actually be even more solidly connected with your partner.

Janelle Orion 01:59

Yeah, we can't like we can't even just do it justice. We're speechless. You just have to listen to his to this episode just as that's just

Andrea Enright 02:07

it. Yeah, this is about being brave in relationships. Enjoy. Hello, bravehearts. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle, and we're super excited for our next installment in our how to talk about sex and intimacy series. We have interviewed each other, we have interviewed experts, and now we are interviewing brave hearts, yes, people just like you, who are trying to be brave when talking about sex and intimacy in their relationships.

Janelle Orion 02:44

And today, we are talking to Janelle Rumi, who's a dear friend of mine, and while not a quote, unquote expert, he's coming at us as like one of us. He is deeply experienced in the realm of relationship and repairs. And on the surface, his home life might seem typical, but underneath is a unique blend of eccentricity, domesticity and esotericism, woven together with ritual and revelry. Janelle and his partner Kali are in an ethically non monogamous relationship. They both work from home, Jan as a writer and a sacred creator of sacred space, and they share their home with colleagues, 14 year old son who lives with him most of the time and spends part of the week with his dad and Janelle, something that you mentioned before we got on this is that you thrive in liminal spaces where the past is honored, the present is shaped and the future is conjured with intention, and that relationships and repair are a passion for you, and not only for your own relationships, but also you support others in navigating their own relationships. So we're so happy to have you here today. Thank you for agreeing to talk to us.

Yana Rumi 04:06

Thank you so much for the invitation. It's really wonderful what you folks are up to and this whole movement. It just feels wonderful to be here. Thank you. So

Janelle Orion 04:16

we're gonna dive right in. Like, what was the hardest thing when it comes to talking about sex and intimacy with your partner.

Yana Rumi 04:27

Whoa, geez, I think there's, there's two places where it's where I find have found a lot of difficulty. I think the first place is structurally like having a safe space or a safe way, a safe container. Some people use the word container to have that conversation. So there's been times where I've tried and it was just like, took a lot because I didn't know. That I was safe to even go there. So I think the first thing that's that's really important is that structural piece, like, how can we speak about this and feel safe enough to speak about this? And so there's everybody might have different ways of creating that space. For me. In the past, I've been like, let's have rules and guidelines and ways that we do this so that we can feel safe. And I think more recently, it sort of evolved into just asking those questions, like, I wonder what is necessary for us to feel safe, to talk about this stuff, and what's possible if we talk about these things, and sort of asking questions into our center and saying, Hmm, how can we do this, where we feel safe, and maybe even bring in a Couple other distinctions, like, not only safe, but how, how can my belonging in this relationship stay whole and connected? Like, because when you start talking about desires and sex and like, your belonging might be threatened. Are you still gonna love me if I tell you that I want to do this crazy thing or this potentially, right so that place where you can touch into are we going to be safe? Is our belonging going to be met? And then the last one is, how can I stay in my dignity as I ask these questions or share these desires, and that's often sort of a more personal movement, like, what are the ways that I can stay in my center and feel like strong in my dignity, asking and inquiring into questions about sex and sexuality and expression and all Those wonderful, juicy spaces. So that's the first thing. Is the container. I

Andrea Enright 07:04

just love that you talked about the structure right away, because this is what we recently chatted about. Is that, like, we can talk about all these theories and concepts, but like, where the rubber meets the road is like, where are we doing this? Like, What room are we in? What mood Am I in? What time of day is it? Am I shutting the door? Am I touching you? Am I not touching you? How are we sitting and so really speaking to I love that. How can my belonging stay whole? This actually relates perfectly to a brave heart question we had recently about talking to your partner, about opening up the relationship. So I think just really doing that, I guess my question is, just, how do we do this? Like, those are all great ideas. And how, like, if I wanted to do it with my partner, where do I start?

Janelle Orion 07:53

Or an example, maybe, of how you did, I know you asked some of these questions, but can you walk us through? Like, Oh, here I said you had a question that, or a conversation you wanted to have, and this is what you did.

Yana Rumi 08:05

Well, yeah, so setting the container, like taking the time to set the space, as someone who does a lot of ceremony and ritual, I like to just create that space, like, consecrate it. Like, let's make this space sacred, and let's start out by setting our intentions. Our intentions are for our safety. Our intentions are for our belonging and our dignity. Our intentions are to call in spirit whatever is in alignment with you, your ancestors, that are there for your highest good, like you know, whatever really speaks to you in like, creating that sort of liminal but sacred space that's often really wonderful movement, and it's also part and partial to becoming more aware in conscious like, I think this just The very act of speaking to one's desires around sexuality is bringing it to awareness, right? It's bringing it into the light. And so the do to the degree that you can do that at each step and be conscious. And so for me, often the first step is an invocation and a consecration, and sort of bringing a little bit of ritual to that space, because then the soma, the body, can sort of rest and down and back into that knowing, right? So that's that allows for a lot to open and flourish in a space that feels held not just by the structure, but by spirit. So that's, that's the first move. The second one is, like, really, to me, is the hard part, and I think particularly being a human in a male body, I wasn't super conscious of my desires, like they're kind of running in the background for the longest time. They're kind of like a little dark. For me even to admit to right? So I think the movement often is for folks to be like, really clear about what it is they desire. Now, the more that you bring again, the more you bring consciousness to that, to more intention and awareness you bring, the clearer it becomes, and it can be really powerful for yourself and for in partnership to be really clear on what it is you want, what it is you don't want. So you know that can happen in real time, and oftentimes it does. It evolves as you have a safe space, and you can sort of just say, Let's like, maybe you just admit, like, I have a couple things that I think about or fantasize about, but I would love to just have a space where we explore what our desires are, instead of like, saying, Okay, we're going to talk about this. Maybe it's more casual. Maybe it's just something where you're asking questions like, What does it feel like? What does it look like? What do I want? And then really allowing that to open up, instead of, like, trying to go to like, your deepest, darkest, scariest, sexiest thing, maybe you can just sort of go slow and feel into that question and really be curious. Like, be curious for yourself and curious for your partner. Give them some space to, like, explore themselves to I'm

Janelle Orion 11:34

curious myself right now. How you're describing it sometimes, as Andrew and I have gone spoken on the podcast like it's like, oh, I'm in crisis, and so now I'm coming to my partner because I'm already at the edge. And what you just described, it sounds like it could also it obviously still works for if you're at that crisis moment. But it also is like, hey, let's just set an hour or a time capsule to talk about our sex and infancy without knowing what we're going to talk about. We're just going to explore our desires within ourselves and in relation to the other and see what comes up. And so we can just make that almost like a date that's set as sacred space as you're speaking to without it having to be we have a problem, and we're here to fix

Yana Rumi 12:22

it absolutely,

Andrea Enright 12:26

almost like something you would do on a regular basis, instead of only when there's an issue.

Yana Rumi 12:30

Oh, fully. It's almost like if there were an issue, I wouldn't even necessarily go into the content. That's one of the things that I find particularly powerful in if you're in a crisis space, it might not be the best time to go into like, Oh, my desires or my needs aren't getting met, and there's a crisis like, if you're at that place, there's you need to go slow and tease out the little pieces that are there and get in underneath. Because when you're talking about sex and sexuality, it's really tender, right? And if you're in crisis, that tender content often can get smashed. And so if I'm one of the things that we do whenever we're in sort of like a like, Uh oh, I'm I'm grabbed. We call it a grab or a hook. I'm feeling hooked, or I'm feeling grabbed by this thing. We just pause and we have a whole movement that we go through there before we really delve into what the content is. And so, yeah, I feel like talking about deep sexuality and intimacy really has to personally. I have to be in a real zone of what I call zone of resilience, like fully resourced. I'm there, I'm present. I'm not grabbed. That grab is like, let's go do that over here, and then we can come back to this place around sexuality. Okay, so

Janelle Orion 14:01

I would love to have an example of that, because what I'm hearing is because I think, certainly in my experience, we've spoken to this of, oh, I have my problem, like I want something that needs not getting met. And so now we're here to talk about it, but in the talking about it, or prior to, right, we haven't set the structure or the container effectively. Potentially, that could be one issue. But if it is something that has, you know, we're feeling activated around, you're using the word grabbed or hooked around, then what is that step? You said, Oh, I do we do a movement, or we do something else, like, how are you? Are you basically saying, Okay, we have to come back to regulating our nervous system, and whatever that looks like, and then once we're back to a regulated nervous system or centered, then we talk about the content of sex and intimacy. But you don't talk about sex and intimacy as content unless that's there.

Yana Rumi 14:58

Yeah. Generally. Yes, as always, you know, fluid as life is, yeah, so the movement that we we really when we recognize that we're grabbed hooked, you know, use, use your word. It's always like acknowledging that first and just saying, Okay, I'm feeling, you know, grabbed by this and setting space like that first movement that interrupt, because there's a tendency to be like, it's like, come up to the surface, and you just have to talk about it and what it, you know, in you just like, oftentimes we set aside a space, hopefully intentionally, to talk about it, and then it's just like processing. You're grinding into it and grinding into it, and it's often not effective, right. It's often just like we're just processing. And I want to be right, and I want you to hear me. And one of the most important distinctions we have is you can be right or you can be connected and effective. You can't often have both right. So we have this commitment to staying connected, and so that trumps whether or not we're right or not. So that's one move. And so with that we then we paused and say, let's set aside time to work with this. And it's a game of like, not letting that go for too long, right? We have this game of like, How soon can I bring my thing to our center, whatever that thing is, not letting it go 48 hours. Like, keep playing, like, Can we do this in 24 hours? Can we do this in two hours? How? How soon can we address the bump, the thing where we're just like, right? So that's the first move, is acknowledging it in like, taking it head on. The second move is feedback loops. We have our own particular thing, like, that's probably a whole nother podcast. But whatever your feedback loop or mechanism is, I found the most effective ones aren't focusing on the content. It's really a process of whoever has the grab or whoever's feeling triggered, they have a chance to share and that the other partner the first move is just to reflect without anything else, just so that the person with the thing feels heard. If you can do a and b, whatever your process is, just that alone will manage 95% of the situations, right? It's just, I said, let's just say, Janelle, you know, we were hanging out, and you said something that really just like, felt like I wasn't seen. You know, I said this thing, but then you made this assumption about me, and something fell off. I would come to you and just say, hey, Janelle, I I really would like to talk about that, because it felt like it made me feel this sort of thing. And are you free? Do you have? Is there consent to share about this scenario and then say, Hey, I just want to share. And I want to I actually just want to know that you've heard me. And then if there feels like there's something else we need to do after great. And so I would share. And then what I would ask is just for you to paraphrase, just to like, to the best of your ability, speak back to me what I just said, and then pause and just like, take a breath and then feel what what's left and what's present. So oftentimes, when I would come to other, or other comes to me with their thing, our natural reaction is sort of a defense. It's survival mechanism. And there's nothing wrong with that. But the issue is, when you as soon as you're in a defensive mode, as soon as either partners in a defensive mode, it's done, you got to stop like that's another really powerful rule. If you have any sense of being defensive or sense it from your partner, pause and say, there's some defensiveness present in me, in you, in the space, in nothing good moves out of that space. So

Andrea Enright 19:26

then what do you do? So like, do you wait five minutes? Do you wait two days? And how do you get out of that defensive mode? I think is, yeah,

Yana Rumi 19:35

that's a great, great question. It's developing whatever your practices are, you know, some I don't know if you guys have stock talked about emotional release practices. Those are great, you know, breathing, centering, go for a walk, come back to your higher anchor. Like, what is your commitment to your partner? Is there a higher anchor? You know. We have. We started our relationship with like, I'm committed to your well being in every movement. Like I'm committed to all these sort of we have 12 different places where we've like, I'm a commitment to this piece in our relationship. And so when you sort of smell or feel that vibe of defensiveness, it's always a good time to pause and, you know, say, Okay, let's come back to the structure, that structure of share and reflect. And I've actually one of the best places to learn this is chat GPT. If you use it like you can actually say, hey, chat. I'm feeling and this is sex, and I so pissed that they're doing this, and it will just give you a reflection. It's just like, I hear you, you are going through it, and there's, here's what's going and it's just like, it's like, the perfect neutral reflection. And so that's actually what is really valuable, if you can do that in partnership and be that reflector of exactly what's present. I honestly so many times you that's all that's needed, because then when you're reflecting, oftentimes you kind of like, oh, it makes sense that you would feel that way. You know, instead of being like, that wasn't what I intended, right? That wasn't my intention. My intention was this, you're taking me wrong. That's an often sort of the defensive posture. It's like, yes, but the impact, the impact on the person. So this conflation between intention and impact, it's really important to have those two separated, because then you you often break the defensiveness pattern. Is recognizing, yes, my intention was this, but that's not what's important. It's not important for me to be right right now. It's important for me to stay connected. And so I want to hear about the impact first, and once that impact is heard and felt, then you might be able to say, Oh, my intention was this, but now I understand the impact was that. And it's not often that the person who's had the impact is ready to hear what you intended to say, or what was meant to say, until they've been heard about the impact they

Janelle Orion 22:21

received. Okay, I'm gonna pause you right there. There's a lot, there's a lot, so so much juiciness. I'm just gonna start with the chat GBT as a way to practice this. If you don't feel like you can hold it with your partner just yet, to practice saying why you're upset to chat and have chat reflect back to you and just see how you feel right. See how you feel like, once you've been heard, then Oh, does your defensiveness? Does the impact go away? Like? Does it just like feel and notice what your body is doing.

Andrea Enright 22:58

Beautiful. This is so funny, because this is really a hack. This is what Janelle And I did the most in our like, 14 minute boxes in the beginning of polyamory, like I would talk and just talk and talk and talk and, like, do it all out. And then she was like, Okay, I heard you say this, and the benefit was not only in the reflection, but in the talking itself. Yeah, I see would also be the case with AI, because you're actually saying these things out loud.

Yana Rumi 23:27

And you can, you know, this is another little AI trick, but you can say, I want you to be my XYZ therapist. I want you to be, actually, I want you to be Buddha, or I want you to be, tell me as if you're Thich Nhat Hanh or, you know, pick your favorite guru and say, I want you to reflect. To me, here's what's going on for me. I want you to reflect from that position, you know, like the best therapist ever, or whatever it is. And that gives it even a little more context. You can even create a council. You can create a council of people and have chat, you know, counsel you, but yeah, that initial just reflection that doesn't have the emotional content isn't going to be defensive, is actually just going to be a direct paraphrase. And to the degree that you can learn how to paraphrase, like chat for your partner is really powerful when you can have that with another human. The trust that's built and the reps that get built are really powerful. Because one of the things that we've recognized and sort of have held from the beginning is rupture in repair. Whenever that happens, it's actually there's a rupture that occurs in the relationship, but then the repair comes together, and it makes this bond in the relationship that's stronger than was what there before. Now you have a pattern of repair that you can know, that you can come back to. So the more repair movements that you have together, the more stability and strength that that relationship. Has so there's this place where rupture and repair actually is powerful. Is like as it can't if you could do it consistently and count on it, then you have a foundation that's just so solid. Okay,

Janelle Orion 25:13

all right, brave hearts, take a deep breath. Janelle is just like dropping wisdom bombs left and right here, what I heard is that oftentimes we're like, oh my gosh, I've been fighting. I'm fighting so much with my partner. But actually what I'm hearing you say, you can be fighting all you want with your partner, potentially, that's actually beneficial, as long as every time you have a fight or a disagreement or a difference, you're repairing that, because the repair actually strengthens the relationship, which means that the fight, inadvertently can also strengthen the relationship, as long as the repair process is in place.

Yana Rumi 25:50

Yeah, it does require the completion. Many of us are addicted to the drama, right? There's different. We all have our stuff, right? We all have our parts that love the drama. We have our, you know, I don't know how much you've guys have gone into attachment stuff, but, you know, we might have this anxious attachment, or this avoidant attachment model that just, like, doesn't get the repair done, right? So it's important to, that's why I go back to like, get out of the content and keep it simple. Just do the straight, simple process of share and reflect, and then see if that, see what settles, go slow and see what settles out of that, instead of some sort of like process where you share, and then I share, and then you share, and then it's just like, builds like, you just start building layers of like, you know, I'm angry about this, but you're angry about this, and yeah, and then, and then, if it like, you do that, and then you nothing's complete. And then you're just like, nothing's fixed, or feels like anything's been done. And then it just, yeah, your resentment sneaks in, that over time, is resentment, and that's a killer. That's a killer because if you're just in survival mode, in a relationship, if you're there, just trying sticking on because you're trying to survive, that's death. And if it's if it's already dead, you might as well go ahead and kill it. That's where death doulaine comes in. Yeah,

Janelle Orion 27:22

and so that okay, so going down that path, I'm curious. Something that you mentioned was that you and your partnership have undergone profound transformations, such that you've initiated relationship death doulas three times. So can you share more about what that means? What was the context? And yeah, and how did you come back together?

Yana Rumi 27:50

The first time was actually initiated when we were in a level two ista. And so that's a whole thing. I'll just say, for those that aren't familiar with it, a lot of the theme of that experience is dying to yourself. It's a process of like ego, death, ritual, death of what you are, so that something new can be reborn. You know, as humans, the deeper we can become into relationship with death, the more vibrant our life becomes. And that's a really wonderful, powerful practice, perhaps a whole nother podcast, but just this notion that death is a portal, you know, and there are various kinds of deaths, and each death can lead to a state change, or the big ones, like initiations can lead to a stage change, like you initiate into another level of yourself or level of relationship. And so we're in the middle of this. We came as a couple to this, to this ritual movement with ista, and in her infinite wisdom, she comes to me and says, You know what, if we're really gonna die, we need to die to our relationship as well. Because if we're going through this this ritual, and we're still in relationship to each other, that's gonna be like an attachment that isn't gonna allow this full experience to happen. And I'm like, You're right, damn it, you're right. And so we said, Okay, how do we do this? And so we, we created a ritual inside of that ritual that was happening. And we, we were in the same room. We separated. We had our altar together. We separated. We had ritually cut our ties. We did all this, this movement, to really die to what we thought we had and be reborn to what's possible. And man, it was so powerful. It was so painful, because we went three days in the space where we were kind of in a container together. Here, but we weren't talking, and we were like, trying the best we could to, like, hold it as, like it's dead, and we really want it to be reborn, to just see what's next and see what's possible. And so we were in a pretty safe space, like together, and it was in a container, and it was magical, because as soon as we just like our longing, the longing that was inside of us, just grew so big through that process. And then when it was complete and over, we came back and said, All right, shall we start again? And we were like, Fuck yes, we want to start again. We really, really want to start again. And so it was renewal. It's just like the seasons. It was like, winter is like taking a relationship through this winter to shed all the dead stuff so that the new stuff could emerge, right? So we had that tool in our pocket, and we're like, wow, this is powerful. And so we just like, put that in the toolbox, and then later, any relationship kind of falls into its ruts. You know, you get into your patterns, and you get to get comfortable, and you get safe, and things kind of get bland and right. And in, of course, in her wisdom, she did. The Goddess came to me and said, We need to just start. We need to kill our relationship again. And I was like, Ah, you're right. I was so comfortable, but I don't want to do this, but you're right. And so that was more out of necessity. That was more out of like, it's getting it needs work, it needs something new, and because of that is even a little more scary. But we had that. We had the pattern already. We had the pattern of and so in this one, we did, we did the whole ritualization, cutting ties. We even did a little like memorial to the relationship. And just like the obituary, we read the obituary and said it was amazing. It was this. These were the issues. This is why it didn't work. Thank you so much. Great Spirit for this opportunity to be in relationship with this human and I let them go. You know, let it go, and it's powerful. There's a powerful way to initiate the the shedding of the old stuff and bringing, bringing the renewal. And that's kind of advanced, like it's kind of a thing that that if you have some experience in ritual space, in Holding, holding, that it's really powerful. I think it's also be great to have a third party like, kind of be present and holding that space for you. And we've actually thought, Oh, what about becoming relationship death doulas? Is there a thing like, is that a thing? It really is this notion and getting close to death and saying, Look, death is actually your friend, and it's a portal to the next iteration of life, and continuing to embrace that in relationship with yourself, in relationship with others.

Janelle Orion 33:18

I'm curious, Janelle about the fact that you guys are ethically non monogamous. Can you speak to just a piece of like when you have one of you has a new beloved or a new partner or, I mean, Andrea, in my experience with being poly, is that you know you can be open, but that just means something for that moment, right? And then the next person or the next version of me comes through, and then what open and ethically non monogamous means actually changes, or what it looks like changes. So can you speak to a little bit of your experience from that relationship format, of how you guys navigate some of that stuff,

Andrea Enright 34:01

and can I just add to that? Like, anytime there is a mismatch desire along with that,

Yana Rumi 34:07

it's challenging territory. Monogamous relationship is difficult in and of itself, and you add other relationships, you know it works for some, and it doesn't work for all, and it's not some like everyone should be this way. I think monogamous relationships are amazing and really meant for many, many folks and those that feel like exploring in there's all the names you said, poly, open, ethically, non monogamous. There's different ways to frame it. It really is an opportunity to find your edges, and it's really stepping into that growth that happens in relationship. And I feel like as humans, our growth does happen almost exclusively in relationship. It's really hard to develop a whole. Not embodied, you can develop a lot of knowledge on your own, but like that wisdom that lives in your body genuinely occurs in relationship to other into the world, right? And so the ethically non monogamous movement really is stepping into that, and like feeling into what it is to be in relationship with someone who is also experiencing joy, love, ecstasy with another human. I'm pretty wired differently. I'm one of those that I actually am turned on when my partner is turned on with someone else. People call it Compersion conversion, for those that, if that's a new word, is, if you can think of a spectrum of like, jealousy is on one side, conversion would be on the other. And it's a lot like the thing that the spectrum of pain and pleasure, like, for some people, pain is really pleasurable, right? And for me, there's because when you're really jealous, like, it's strong, that emotion is can, like, move people to war, like that it has, it's really true, like, it's a really powerful emotional state. It's a mix of a bunch of different things. But if you think of it on a spectrum, like, there's actually this place in the it's all sensation, right? So if it's on the spectrum, and on the other side is Compersion, like the same amount of sensation and turn on can be present in the circumstances that would bring one to feel jealous. And so somehow I It wasn't particularly a conscious movement. For me, it was something I kind of sensed and sort of fantasized about, but found that when my partner is whether I'm with them or in the vicinity or not, when I get to when I know that they're out visiting with someone else, I feel alive, like there's energy moving through my body. And I'm, I'm, I'm filled with with life, and so that's a turn on to me. And there's definitely places where it's been, oh shit, I am really. Do I still belong? Does she still love me? Am I enough? Am I worthy? Like all those things definitely come along. And actually, just very recently, I had an experience of that, and it's just fascinating. As many times as I've experienced, you know, being turned on, I still feel, feel the experiences of jealousy, or like I had a freeze, like I had this moment where friends beloveds were over. It was sort of later at night. There was this little cuddle puddle thing happening. And I was like, kind of tired, and I heard the cuddle puddle sort of elevate into more, you know, erotic, sexual kind of stuff happening, the amazing sounds coming from the basement. And I was just like, oh, I should go down and just wish them well and say, I need to go to bed and take care of myself. And I froze. I like, I couldn't, like, penetrate into that space. I didn't want to interrupt them. And I just, like, I just there was part of me that just didn't feel I didn't feel sexy, I didn't feel like I was in a space to even say, Hey, have fun. And so that was just a very subtle expression of my questioning myself and not sure about my own worthiness. And so I just chose this sort of like avoidance, and just went straight to bed. And what happened was they were worried. They were concerned for me. And the next morning, you know, my partner came to me College, like, is everything okay? Like, what happened? And did we do something wrong? Because then all of a sudden, when there's no connection, there's no communication, then there's this question, then this space opens up for like, oh, you know, she was worried that she did, or crossed a line, or something happened. And more often than not, what you find out is it's a communication thing, like nine times out of 10, it's some mismatch in communication. And then we just develop our story about what that was about. And so thankfully, we have this place of being, just being curious, like saying, Hey, are you okay? What's wrong? And, like, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm, I'm curious what was going on for me. And as I think about it, I think I was just a little bit afraid. I was a little bit scared to come and say anything, and I didn't feel, I didn't feel like I didn't feel resourced, and so they, luckily, it was a little bump, but it's a great example of how things can, can really get off track. And I swear it is so often about communication, like, were we clear? If there's ever an assumption to make? In any relationship, assume that there's a communication breakdown versus malicious intent, or like some sort of they're they're not thinking about me, or they're not present about there. They're not giving me enough attention, or they don't acknowledge me for how amazing. Just let all that shit go to the side and assume first there was a communication breakdown. And get curious about where the breakdown was, because it really is more often than not something in that domain. Yeah,

Andrea Enright 40:30

I hear that the communication is so huge, but I also just want to acknowledge that you just kind of gave bravehearts permission to be like, Wow, yeah, I'm not feeling it. I can't get there. I have to go to bed. I can't go address it. I can't and so, and I think that's just really important, because there are going to be times when you're just like, I don't feel sexy. I'm not into this. It doesn't work for me. I don't know why, but I really love how you explained how you did it. You did avoid but then in the morning, there was curiosity and then connection again. Yeah, yeah,

Yana Rumi 41:03

yeah. We have a thing where we're like we we say, Thank you for taking care of yourself, you know, honoring that we're not always going to be in peak forms. You know, giving their partner space to be in whatever they're in, whatever that, you know, funk could be, or whatever that place could be, is like, I don't want them to bypass and push through and be fake and try to be something. You know, when that really underneath, it's the true thing is, actually they need to step away. And you know, if you can cultivate that in relationship, then all this sort of resentment buildup doesn't happen. Because often we resent having to be a certain way because our partner expects it.

Janelle Orion 41:53

I just want the brave, the brave hearts, to hear right like you are, probably again, my own perspective, like one of the most experienced when it comes to communication because of your background, I mean, more than a decade of like, being in these realms and like very experienced in a very successful, in my opinion, like open loving relationship, and you still had a moment where you're Like, I have all my tools, and I still froze and I wasn't resourced. The lesson is not that you had to be quote, unquote perfect or be a certain way in that moment. It was that again, in the repair process, right? You were like, Oh, I can like you had you, had you and colleague had the step of like, let's be curious, and you were curious, and what I heard curious and compassionate and graceful with yourself.

Yana Rumi 42:44

Yeah, I feel like being in a male body. We're often, we're often supposed to be the strong one that no matter what, we're there and can hold the space and be the container holder. And there's a often this sort of unconscious, you know, I'm not supposed to feel, or I'm not supposed to be the one that breaks down. That's for my partner to be, and I'm there to just sort of be the solid, the solid character. And we're all human. We all have a heart. We all have this like tender. We have these parts that have, you know, grown in, in these different ways, and finding a way to honor that for yourself and in the relationship is really a foundational movement to see if you can really give your partner space to be messy and be and still stay connected and stay connected With yourself when you're messy.

Janelle Orion 43:40

So yeah, one last question is, you know, as someone who has dedicated years to relationship study, and not only your own but in support of others, what is one dangerous truth about love, connection and transformation that most people aren't ready to hear but need to

Yana Rumi 44:01

we romanticize the idea that loving someone deeply enough everything else is going to work itself out. But love, no matter how intense and passionate and sacred, is really kind of just the raw material, right? It's, it's the alchemy of love and action, love and responsibility, love and discernment that creates sustainable relationship. Like the place where I really like this hit me so hard was with my previous partner in her children. When I came into the relationship, the twins were eight years old, and the older sister was 10. And you know, there was deep mental health. You know, special needs stuff with the twins, and I was like, I'm a commitment to love, like, love conquers all, and I can be the one that's going to help be the glue. And three years later, I was just like, dying and and she's calling me out, because I'm like, halfway, I'm already, like, one foot out the door. And so I like, recommit and, like, double down on my love. And this is great. Like, this is great because, like, how do you love in the face of someone spitting at you in your face, or, like, wishing you're beheaded and in dismembered. Like, how do you love in the face of that? You know, you're dealing with mental health scenarios like and so it was like this quickening for me. But what it really taught me was, there's that's, that was sort of a naive place to be coming from, love. Love can't replace self awareness. Love can't replace just some fundamental, you know, compatibilities. You can adore someone and still be fundamentally misaligned. And love can't replace growth if two people aren't willing to evolve. You know, not just together, but as individuals, love can become a cage instead of a force for expansion. Yeah, the truth that people often don't want to face is love. Love can be real and profound and still not be enough to keep two people together. It's really how we love, right, who we choose to love, and whether the love is helping us become more of who we truly are.

Janelle Orion 46:50

Yeah, yeah. I've teared up twice on this episode. I just want everyone to know, yeah, just like your wisdom, your ability to communicate and to share. Like, from an from such a deeply, open hearted place is, yeah, so

Andrea Enright 47:07

fucking big like, I think this is so useful, so helpful for brave hearts. I'm so

Yana Rumi 47:15

grateful you guys asked me on. I'm so glad to share. You know, I'm just a normal guy, you know, I've traveled this path, you know, and been really on this path, like, this is my passion. Like, everybody has their passion, like engineering or whatever it is, right? This just happens to be in alignment with my path. And so I'm glad to share some things, yeah,

Janelle Orion 47:37

and luckily, at brave hearts, you can still get more of Jan, if you want, in a beautiful way, is that he is publishing his first book, and so Jan, I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about it and what it's about. Oh,

Yana Rumi 47:53

yay. I'm so excited. It's like on the precipice of publishing. I don't know when we're gonna air, but it might be about the same time. So the book is called simple magic for health and prosperity, and it's a practical guide to a magical life. And so what I've done in this book is, thanks to the miracle of modern technology, I've been able to synthesize rituals and spells and invocations and prayers from indigenous and mystical cultures from all over the world and have brought it together in one book that's all about just giving you a little bit of context, like our modern context, but ancient and modern sort of rituals and practices that can help bring forth health and wellness and prosperity into into our lives. I feel it's so powerful to not only have like an intention, but to actually bring it into an embodied ritual. And when you do that, you're calling in spirit and the unseen in ways that we're just kind of now seeing the synthesis of science in spirituality, like quantum mechanics and all these things are kind of really coming together right now to really support each other. Instead of being antagonistic to each other. It's like, oh, actually, our ancestors were really on to something, and now we kind of like, kind of see why from a new lens. And so it's bringing that all together and sharing that for folks to you know, it could be the whole book of rituals are like, Yes, this is amazing. Or there could be a couple that are just like, Oh, these are the game changers for me. And so it's an offering for for folks to have a little they call it a Grimoire, a book of spells to explore ways to increase your health and prosperity. Beautiful.

Janelle Orion 49:49

And I know your second book, which is already underway, is is simple magic of love and relationships.

Yana Rumi 49:57

Yes, yes, yes, yeah. I'm so. Excited I'm already working on it, like, yeah, to take rituals for the sake of health and prosperity or love and relationship and just synthesize them and make them really easy and accessible has just been, like, my life's passion in the last few months. And so, like this next book is really, really chomping at the bit to get that one out too. So yeah, I'm very excited to share that with you. All Okay,

Janelle Orion 50:22

all right, brave hearts, you're gonna want this one on repeat, because so much juicy stuff. Janelle, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Yana Rumi 50:33

You're so welcome. Thanks for having me. Thanks for sharing your space.

Andrea Enright 50:36

Thank you, brave hearts, we'll see you next time. Love you.

Janelle Orion 50:41

Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission,

Andrea Enright 50:43

work with us. We offer Braveheart coaching. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at a Braveheart conversation. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website. Permission to be human. Dot live you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai