Ep 82: Part 9/12, The Repair is Where the Juice Is: How to Talk about Sex Series

Janelle and Andrea interview intimacy and relationship coach Dr. Hazel-Grace Yates about their own REPAIR process. Bravehearts, here’s the holy-shit-this-is-it, articulate culmination of navigating difficult shit! Hazel Grace explains how Resourcing, Empathy, Permission, Acknowledgement, Impact and Restore create “safety and scaffolding” so you can arrive at complex shared realities, and restore integrity and deep connection. There’s a nod to the Esalen Institute, where Hazel Grace is a teacher.

--Empathy isn’t just for others--you need it too.

--How to avoid scope-creep and contain the conversation (yes, those are PM words!)

--Why “story hygiene” matters--clean, update, renew!

--The significance of curiosity and reflective listening (I heard this, did I get it right?)

--How to get beyond “agreeing to disagree” to deeper understanding

--Why restoration helps the brain rewire and rebuild trust

Learn more about Dr. Hazel-Grace Yates at https://www.drhazelgrace.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

Janelle Orion 00:01

Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could

Andrea Enright 00:41

be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts.

Janelle Orion 00:45

Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way. We got you great practice. We just finished talking to Dr Hazel Grace Yates and her repair process, and it just feels right. Andrea like this is a culmination of everything that we have learned about why to communicate to our partners about sex and intimacy is, ultimately, is like, it's so that you can have a repair conversation,

Andrea Enright 01:31

yes, to deepen connection. Yes, this is actually a culmination of the topics of our podcast for the last couple of years as well. So if you have been listening. I feel like, Oh, I'm tapping in. This is a culmination. Dr Hazel Grace takes us through the repair process, which is a good model for anyone having a difficult conversation about anything, including sex and intimacy.

Janelle Orion 01:58

And you know, we all know, Andrea loves a good acronym, and this is a really, really solid one.

Andrea Enright 02:04

It's really true. I think hearing from Dr Hazel Grace Yates put some scientific backing and structure to so many of the anecdotes and experiences that we've relayed over the years. It's like, yes, there is a way to do this. There is a way to be present, conscious and connected with your partner, even during difficult topics. There's a way to come together instead of creating more distance. Uh, so excited. Here it comes, brave hearts. Hey, brave hearts, welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle, and this is the next installment of our 12 part series on how to talk to your partner about sex and intimacy. We have interviewed each other, we've interviewed experts, and we have interviewed brave hearts. You our listeners to find out, what are your tricks, what are your hacks, what has been your experience? And how can we move forward into these conversations with more strategies, more grace, more vulnerability. I am

Janelle Orion 03:17

so excited today because we're interviewing Dr Hazel Grace Yates, who is an expert, also a friend, and she has dedicated over 14 years as an intimacy and relationship coach, realizing that so many of their own relationship challenges stemmed from the inability to navigate conflict, and so they developed the repair process, a comprehensive six step methodology empowering individuals to cultivate healthier connections. And I'm so excited because we're going to dive into this today, and this is what we have heard repair is like a critical, critical component to actually being able to have these conversations about sex, intimacy and as an evolutionary educator. Dr Hazel Grace Yates integrates professional expertise with playful curiosity, reflecting their profound commitment to a more compassionate, loving and safe world. Dr Hazel Grace Yates has spoken on the TEDx stage, taught at the Esalen Institute, and has multiple certifications, including queer competency, trauma, informed traumatic sex education and a PhD in human sexuality. They also love a good ping pong game or a roller skating romp. Thank you, Hazel Grace, so glad you're

Dr Hazel Grace 04:33

here. Oh, thank you so much. I'm I'm bubbling with excitement about this conversation.

Andrea Enright 04:40

Awesome. Okay, so we will dive right in. And I think my first question for you is, what sometimes gets in the way of talking about sex and intimacy with your partner?

Dr Hazel Grace 04:55

Such a small, giant question. I. Yeah, what gets in the way? I mean, the first thing that comes up is fear. How is my partner going to take the feedback that I have? Or how do I say it in a way that they're going to be able to hear it? Or is, is me bringing something out going to cause another fight, or is it gonna cause them to shut down? Or those are the ones that are just like right on top. Hazel

Andrea Enright 05:27

Grace, it sounds like you have your own repair process for addressing these conversations and helping people prepare to be in the right space to go through this process. Can you just start to outline what this looks like, what the whole thing is, and then we'll kind of go step by step through each stage?

Dr Hazel Grace 05:48

Yeah, absolutely. So repair is an acronym, and the first three letters, R, E, P is the preparation for the conversation. So so much of this is actually preparing to even have the conversation. And then this the second half of the process a i r is called the clearing the air conversation. So it's kind of broken up into two, two kind of segments. And so, you know, if someone is struggling to have a conversation or bring talk about sexuality or there's conflict that they haven't been able to address. The first step in the process is called resourcing, and when I say resourcing, I'm specifically referring to our nervous system. So what can we do to prepare ourselves to be in the most centered, grounded, regulated, equanimous state that actually allows us to face our fears, actually allows us to say what we mean, allows us to be able to hear what the other person is actually saying, instead of what our our fear brain might be misinterpreting so resourcing. Resourcing is the first step, and that can look like, you know, journaling, going for a walk, shaking, having an orgasm, whatever it is that someone would need in order to bring themselves into a more regulated and grounded state.

Andrea Enright 07:16

Beautiful. So if I was doing that and I wasn't familiar or hadn't spent a lot of time in my body, as sometimes our society doesn't support us doing or doesn't encourage us to do. How will I know that I am in that more resourced place for our brave hearts out there?

Dr Hazel Grace 07:39

Mm, hmm, yeah. Really great question. And also, when I say regulated or dysregulated, it's not like, oh, now I'm officially resourced. There's no like, magical like moment dBut generally speaking, we're in a resource enough state to have go into these conversations. If we can be able to track our own our own bodies, so like, can I notice what I'm feeling in my body? Can I articulate what I'm feeling? Am I able to speak slow enough, am I able to say what it is that I mean without having, like, a lot of regret, like, I didn't mean that or and am I able to listen to my partner in a way that I can actually feedback what I'm hearing them say? Like, can I accurately say what I think I'm hearing you say? Is that I get that right? So when we're not in a regulated state, we're not able to sometimes track what the other person is saying. We're resource enough when we can say what we mean, hear what the other person is saying, track our bodies and track the other person's experience as well.

Andrea Enright 08:51

Beautiful summary, okay, thank you so much for that. I'm already like, Where were you? Like the prep and would you say for this first resourcing? Is this something that happens 10 minutes before the conversation, two hours before the conversation, or a day before the conversation? By

Dr Hazel Grace 09:13

the way, when I say resourcing is the first step, it's also throughout the whole repair process, like we basically don't stop resourcing. It is just the first stop on on the on the journey. So depending on how intense the rupture is, or how activated, elevated or disassociated one gets, will depend on how much time you will need for resourcing. It could be that you're having a conversation in the moment, and you might say, I need a pause. I need a moment. And you can actually resource in that moment. Or if it's a big enough rupture, you might need to take space away from the person that you're in conflict with. And so there is no like magic number how many hours and times? It just depends on how much does time do you need to be able to resource yourself, to feel, you know. Grounded enough to go into the conversation.

Andrea Enright 10:01

What's coming up for me now is that clearly, just in this first step, this is going to be a process that I could use for any difficult conversation or any potential conflict or crisis in my life. Correct? Yes,

Dr Hazel Grace 10:18

absolutely. It's pretty ubiquitous in really, any kind of relationships, the difference being, the conversations are going to look different with our partners and our lovers, and maybe like a colleague or coworker or our parent or a child, right? So like, you know, just to give you a snapshot of what resourcing can look like in the moment my dad and I were in the car, he swerved, and I said, Dad, you're in the wrong lane. And then he yelled at me, and I could have continued and escalated. And what I did was I paused, I took a breath, I held my partner's hand, and I like felt into my body, and then I was able to resource myself and have a conversation. You know, that's what it looked like with my dad, with my partner, when we had a really big rupture, we had to go away for two hours. I had to get support from somebody else. He had to ground, take some time alone in the woods, and then we were able to come back and actually hear each other. So it just looks different depending on the relationship and what's required in that moment. Okay,

Andrea Enright 11:29

let's move on to E. What does e stand for? E

Dr Hazel Grace 11:33

stands for empathy. So you've resourced yourself to as much as you can, and then we explore empathy. And again, this step is done not with the person that you're in conflict with. So this is continuing preparation on your own. So empathy is for self and other. So it's saying, How can I have empathy for myself of what I just experienced? So, you know, like, for example, if I I felt frustrated with how my lover showed up, you know, in bed last night, like I felt like my pleasure wasn't being centered, or I didn't feel like my partner was listening to me, empathy for self, would be like, Yeah, that makes sense. My pleasure is important, and it's valid that I want my pleasure to be prioritized or like, cared about, right? So it's validating our own experiences, and then the empathy for other would be like, I wonder what might have been going on for them, such that they didn't, you know, prioritize or center My pleasure. Like, maybe they don't know that my pleasure isn't being centered or or maybe they were tired and rushing through it, or, like, being curious about what might have been going on for them. And the goal here isn't to fully get to like, Oh, I totally have empathy for them before even going to the conversation. The goal isn't to, like, reach empathy. The goal is to be in that curious mind, and like considering I might not have all the information, and it's like being willing to say, kind of zoom out and say, there's, there's, there's multiple realities happening here, and being curious about, you know, what might have been going on for the other person. So that's empathy, exploring empathy for self and exploring empathy for other.

Andrea Enright 13:25

And so with empathy, what I'm thinking as I walk through my own empathy that I try to do with a partner, is that I get a block because I'm like, No, but no, but, yeah, I get it but. And so I feel like there could be just some resistance to that empathy, particularly if you're caught up in a story, or if you're caught up in something that you didn't like the way that your partner did. And so are there any other techniques besides journaling that might help me get to empathy or get to a more just a softer or more compassionate place? One

Dr Hazel Grace 14:00

place to look is what was going on for the other person when this thing happened, and looking at the our physiological needs, for example, have they eaten food? Are were they sober? Have they slept like what was their state of being in the moment that that happened? Were they hungry? Right? Because those things are basic needs. If those are not met, then we're not going to be showing up in our best so, like, what might have been going on for them is the question that I ask, and it's really like, again, I don't want people getting stuck and thinking that you have to get there. But even, you know, even the practice of being like what was going on for them can actually open or shift some things, even if we don't actually even get to the thing. It's like they've done brain scans of when you are even thinking of something that you're grateful for, it fires up that part of our brain. Brain, even if you can't even find something we're grateful for. So it's like even practicing, like having curiosity about the other even if you can't find something, can shift our brain into that more empathetic state.

Janelle Orion 15:12

I'm curious. Hazel Grace, as far as do you find people have a hard time in this one, finding empathy for self?

Dr Hazel Grace 15:20

Yeah, what's interesting is, a lot of people that I work with often are more have more access and more practice, and more have, like, a bias towards being able to have empathy for other. It's actually taking the time to empathize with ourselves and and so it's kind of like a two part. We're validating our experience, like I am feeling frustrated, I'm feeling ignored, I'm feeling, you know, all this, and like giving yourself permission to feel that, and then that, the other second part of that is offering compassion to ourselves. And so the way that I like to coach people that is, imagine a friend coming to you and saying that this is what they're experiencing. What would you say to them? Like, Wow, that must be really hard, or that makes so much sense that you felt hurt or ignored. And so imagining what you would say to another person and like, mirroring that and being like, yeah, it's valid that it feels sad and hurts that my partner is not prioritizing my pleasure or whatever the thing is.

Andrea Enright 16:28

Thank you for Janelle. Janelle for asking about that, because I think I I like, was like, Oh yeah, interesting. And then I skipped right into the empathy for the other just Hazel Grace To your point, right? Because I'm just like, oh yeah, myself, whatever like, because we're so such a habit to focus on the other, or, I guess, not, to take the time to really like be curious and say, Okay, what do I need compassion and empathy for? And to stop, stop any judging that might come up about that. And I'll

Dr Hazel Grace 16:56

throw in one other piece of value in exploring empathy for self here is when you can take the time to be intimately connected to what has been the impact on us. It actually allows us the clarity and the succinctness When it's time to share what our impact was later in the process, and having taken time to, like, really feel into it, can make it more streamlined and more efficient when we get to the part where we get to share what it was like for the impact that we experienced.

Andrea Enright 17:31

Yeah, great insight. Okay, beautiful. Okay, so we have covered resourcing, and we've covered empathy, and so what's the next letter?

Dr Hazel Grace 17:42

Yeah, the next letter is p, which stands for permission, yeah, yeah. You know, like, if, if we're wanting to talk to our partners about things not going as well as we'd like around sexuality, I strongly discourage you talking about it, like in bed, in the middle of the action, or like right finding the right time to have these conversations is so, so important if we want to have hard conversations or scary conversations or fearful conversations, setting both people up for success is going to again, like, lubricate the ease in having these, you know, uncomfortable conversations. So permission. We do this to make sure that we get permission to make sure that the other person feels resource and that they're consciously opting in and that they have informed consent, because ideally, you've taken the time to get resourced, and you want to make sure like, hey, I want to have this conversation. Do you feel resourced right now? And we want to make sure that people are not caught off guard, right so if we just dive right into the conversation without even getting context or getting permission, it could derail pretty quickly. A frame that I use for these permission is we headline the conversation. So we would say we want to talk about we share the desired outcome, which is my favorite, which is like, what's the gift in this that we can have by having this conversation, what's the best possible thing, we let the other person know, kind of like revealing what is our level of activation or intensity or charge, so that the other person has has informed consent of of how available do I feel to Have that conversation, throwing out an estimate of time frame, how long we think the conversation will last, and then ask them, would you like to have this conversation? So putting it all together as an example, Hey, I'd like to talk about how our our intimacy went last night in service of us having like a. The most connected pleasure possible. I'm feeling, I'm feeling tender and a little shy to have a conversation. I think it'll take 30 minutes. Are you open to having that conversation with me right now? So that was, that would be an example of what it would look like.

Andrea Enright 20:16

Great. Thanks for outlining that example. Is it? It sounded complicated, and then it actually was fairly smooth, really quick, yeah, with lots of practice, right?

Janelle Orion 20:32

And what I'm hearing for me, Hazel Grace. Do people underestimate how long a conversation takes? Because I that is like I am time is, like, lucid for me, and so I'll be like, oh, so take half an hour and then it's like, two hours. So do you find that if you, even if you get the time, quote, unquote, too short, that to pause and say, Okay, we just hit the 30 minute mark, do we need to see keep going, or do we need to reschedule another time? Like, really, kind of like, that's a skill I've learned. Yeah, I didn't have it to start. We

Dr Hazel Grace 21:03

usually, most people underestimate how long something's gonna take. And I think it is good for people if they know that they have a limit, a limit of how long they have, like, emotional or time capacity for what's a hard stop. And you know, one of the other things about the repair process is it's not always done in one sitting. It's not always like a one and done kind of thing. And it it is an estimate of time frame, but it can give someone a ballpark of how you know how long it will take. But generally speaking, people will underestimate how long something will take. And I will say having this structure, having this process, having the steps, and contexting the conversation, like I just did, like this is what I want to talk about, so that we can experience this together, kind of, like, keeps it focused, because sometimes without that framing or like going, Well, what about this, and what about this, and what about this? And it's like we're agreeing to talk about this one piece. And if things come up, we can, like, parking lot, we can, like, write them down to talk about them later, but like, keeping this streamlined process actually has us get to the resolve for completion.

Andrea Enright 22:15

Yeah, I hear so much project management speak. And what you just said, like, I'm just thinking about, like, my old office days of like, oh, scope grape. Scope grape. Nope, we're not talking about my daughter right now, right? Like, no, we're back to this, right? But it's so hard. Obviously, you get off into like, old resentments, or, like another topic structure makes me feel really warm and fuzzy. Like, Janelle knows this, right? I'm just like, No, no. Could we just, like, I just really need a spreadsheet.

Janelle Orion 22:42

So ha, just need a list, spreadsheet.

Andrea Enright 22:46

I know, right? So I really loving how much structure there is here, just to this one letter in permission. And I also don't want that to scare brave hearts and that just put some structure around it, make it your own, and you'll figure it out. It doesn't have to be perfect at first, but what you said is exciting to me, because it stays focused, and it's actually creating an abstract container and Hazel Grace. I wanted to ask about the container. You made reference to this a little bit when in the beginning, when you talked about permission, but do you advise your clients in any way to do a ritual or set up a space or close a door or light candles, or is there anything physical that you recommend for that conversation?

Dr Hazel Grace 23:41

Yeah, I mean that that would go into the permission step right? Because if my partner wanted to talk to me about this and we're driving in the car, I might say, like, I want this conversation deserves a more like sacred, special, grounded, supportive space than driving in the car. All those things that you mentioned Absolutely, having an altar, you know, finding a space of like, where you're feeling connected, lighting a candle, all those things are totally two thumbs up, yes. And what really

Andrea Enright 24:19

resonates for me there is like there's been so many times when we've been in the car because we're squeezing in a conversation and not taking the time and setting aside the container. But what I like that you said was that this conversation deserves more than being in the car, like our relationship deserves more than having this conversation between our home and the grocery store. So love that why it's

Janelle Orion 24:47

so exciting to talk to you Hazel Grace is because what we've learned is that the repair is where like the juice is. It's not about trying to be in a relationship where there is no conflict. It's about trying to be in a relationship where we can repair from the. Conflict that exists. So what you just said about the repair is the honoring, it is the intimacy, it is the commitment, it is the trust of deepening into this connection between us when we are prioritizing the repair where and giving ourselves permission to have that be the best chance for success.

Speaker 2 25:19

Yeah, I get off on the experience of there being like this deep, authentic, ruptured disconnection, because it's actually the potential of that is pathway of intimacy and knowing ourselves and knowing each other in a deeper way. The concept that I like to offer is called generative conflict. So relating to conflict in a way that actually generates more trust and connection when we can do it in a way that's like relating to this seeming obstacle as like actually the pathway for us to know each other more deeply

Andrea Enright 25:57

love that generative conflict Beautiful. Okay, so that was permission. So now the last three letters,

Dr Hazel Grace 26:08

yeah, okay. So that was the prep, R, E, P, the preparation for the conversation. So we haven't yet now we're gonna actually get into the conversation. I will say too. Every step in the process is like safety scaffolding. It's creating more and more safety, right? So, like when we are getting to impact, which is the fifth step that's going to be, like the most vulnerable kind of more intense, but, but the idea of each one of these steps is setting ourselves up to increase the chance for both of us to feel heard and really seen, and so the next step in the process clearing the air is acknowledge. Acknowledge is let's get on the same page about what happened. Let's focus on the what, before we go into how we felt about the thing. And this is because, right? Because impact is the fifth step. Impact is like, I felt this thing. I had had this loss of opportunity, or like the impact. But if we're trying to share the impact on top of us being like, well, that's not what happened. That's not what I said, That's not what I remember. We're not actually going to be able to empathetically, really hear and understand one another, and so that's where I see a lot of people making mistakes as they go straight to the impact before making sure we're we're understanding one another's realities. So that's why we do let's get on the same page about what happened first. And this is also, like one of the trickiest steps, because, as it turns out, we all have our own realities totally I'm

Andrea Enright 27:53

just like, how do you do that? Like teasing this out, it just feels very profound for me, because it it's so important and it feels like an hour conversation in itself.

Dr Hazel Grace 28:04

Yes, it can be absolutely so the distinction that I've created is in the acknowledge step is I'll explain it, I'll say the words first, and then I'll explain what I mean. So there's the goal of acknowledge is to get to what I call shared reality. And shared reality is both people understand one another's realities. That's what shared reality is. So once we get to shared reality, then we can get to impact. But then there's a delineation even in the shared reality, which is we can have a shared reality where our realities match. Of like, Yep, I said, I want to spend at least 20 minutes before we move into penetration. That's what I said. And that's not what happened, and we can agree that that happened, right? So that's called simple shared reality. That's where our realities match. Where it gets interesting and tricky is when we have different realities. We have either a different memory or a different interpretation of something that happened, and that's what I call complex shared reality. So the good news here is even if, whether you get to simple or complex The good news is, even if we have different realities, as long as we understand one another's realities, which would be the shared reality, then we can move to impact. A lot of people will get stuck on like, well, let's agree to disagree. And that spirit of like, agree to disagree actually still has a separate and there's this, like, I'm right, you're wrong. Spirit versus complex shared reality is like, Okay, I got from your perspective, that you you were experiencing me being mad. I got that that's how you were experiencing me. And you get that that that was not my. Experience and understanding one another's realities of how we were interpreting ourselves, has us like be able to view from the other person's their their reality. So when we go to the impact step, which is hearing how we felt, we're actually listening to how we felt based on the other person's reality, not based on our own reality. Oh, wow. Super tricky, and so profound, so profound. Yeah, in order for us to get to that complex shared reality, it does require us to say, I'm willing and capable of putting my reality off to the side, because I'm committed to knowing what you experienced and what your reality is, and it's like one of the most generous, loving things that we can do on top of understanding we are all going to always going to have different realities because We're in different bodies. The acknowledged step can only be successful if both people are on board with this concept, which is both of us can have our own realities, and they can both be valid and true, and they are they might be different. So can we agree that our realities can coexist and both of them are valid and true and different? So that's kind of like a premise. It's kind of like a pre wreck in order to be able to do the acknowledge step, and if it's a simple, shared reality, we have the same memory, same interpretation, simple, great, yay. Go to impact. Where it takes a lot of capacity is for us to be like, Whoa. We have a different reality. But I'm so committed to getting your world, I am willing to set my reality aside and really get and hear what it is that you remembered, or how you interpreted the what happened like a perfect example is I'm polyamorous. Earlier on in my relationship with my partner, I thought we had an agreement, which was, if you're connecting with someone else, tell me as soon as possible, and he remembers, if we're connecting with someone, tell the other person within as soon as possible, within reason or as reasonably, as soon as possible. And that one little that one little word, created upset, because there was a time he connected with someone. We talked on the phone in the morning, and then I saw him that night in person, and he didn't tell me on the phone. He waited till we were in person and and so in his world, he was honoring our agreement, and in my world, he broke the agreement. But what I was willing to do is like, let me understand, what did he How did he interpret? What was his memory about the agreement? So if I can, like, really get into his world, I can see that from his perspective, he did not break the agreement and then him getting into my world the way that I understood it, he could see, oh, wow, I could see from your view, that I broke an agreement. And like, we can, like, really be with one another in that complex shared reality, and then, you know, we got to negotiate from there. So that's an example. I

Janelle Orion 33:35

just want to, like, breathe into what you just said, because as someone who is also Polly, who's navigated this many times, those conversations of like, oh, breaking of agreements, I'm curious. You didn't, haven't said the word curiosity. But that's also in the like, what's coming up for me is, can I be curious that this person who has shown that they love me in all these other ways, can I still be curious about assuming that that's true in this moment, even though I'm like, But wait, you must not love me. I mean, like, that's like, sometimes, like, when there's a break of agreement about this complex shared reality, I'm also there could be a tendency to like, also insert a full on story about they don't love me, they're not listening, they're not paying attention, which ends up muddying the waters as well in this step. Yes,

Dr Hazel Grace 34:31

and that's why this step is so primarily focused on what happened, because the impact step is the opportunity for you get to own and declare the stories that got created. So that's one of the impacts that we might have experienced from it that we don't actually address in the acknowledge it's like, what are like the most basic facts information that we need in order for us to be. Able to talk about how it impacted us. Where it gets tricky is like, you can share what your interpretation was, if it feels important enough for us to get on the same page about a thing, but as much as possible, it's just like, kind of like, what are the facts? What happened? What did we both remember happening?

Andrea Enright 35:21

Okay, thank you. Yeah, okay, so segueing perfectly into impact, then the next letter,

Dr Hazel Grace 35:29

yeah, all of a sudden just got excited, because to me, that's like, this is like the heart of the whole process, and like, the richness of, like, really understanding what it was like for the other person. And again, every single step prepares us to create more and more and more safety, to allow ourselves to be like, Okay, I'm really gonna put myself in your shoes and hear what it was like and like I said, especially if it's complex, shared reality like this step really takes a lot of of capacity and resourcing for us to, like, really get what it was like for the other person. So the impact is, it's very simple in concept. When this thing happened, the impact was, and the good news is, we've already just we've already agreed on, we already have an understanding of when this thing happened. The impact was this, again, if you said when this thing happened and you haven't gotten to shared reality, then there's like, another argument so that. So we've already done that. So when you told me in person about connecting with another person instead of on the phone, the impact on me was feeling scared like nervous, that our trust has been broken and and shocked and surprised. And the gold here is when you share the impact the other person does reflective listening. So what I'm hearing you say is, when I waited, you felt shocked. You felt like our trust has been broken. Did I get that right? And that is like so important and so powerful to hear that back, also to make sure we do reflective listening also to make sure that we actually communicated what it was we wanted to communicate. So the reflective listening is like both, did I say, what I meant to say, and also did did it land? Did they hear, hear what I said? And so you do that until both people feel deeply heard around the impact. And there are multiple ways that we can be impacted. You know, one is our sensation, our bodies, like my my gut clinched, got clinched or got like heat in my body. Emotions, angry, sad, mad, hurt, turned on, betrayed, sad, whatever. All the emotions, what stories got created? The story I made up is you don't care about me as much as I care about you. Like, like Janelle was saying a minute ago. And then was there any sort of loss, loss of time, loss of money, loss of opportunity. And then the last one is, reputation. Did there? Was there any sort of impact on socially, like, on other people, or how was that? Yeah, so those are the different ways that we can be impacted. There's more, but those are five options you could choose from. I'm just

Janelle Orion 38:34

sitting

Andrea Enright 38:37

with wisdom. I need a moment to integrate,

Janelle Orion 38:40

yes, like we, we have spent years, years and years like, practicing, fumbling, being messy, and just to hear it in this really concise way. Like, because this is obviously a combination of various different tools that you've just been like, okay? And here's the thing here, it's threaded together, seeing in myself how many times the A and the I, the acknowledgement and the impact got all matched up into one big fucking ball, and no one could tell the difference, and so just tears and hurt and broken trust went on and on and on and resentment

Andrea Enright 39:16

agreed. And I think you really nailed it, Hazel Grace when you said, agree to disagree is not really right, because I'm just like, oh, that's we get there. Isn't that the right place to get when you don't agree about something in society, in with friends, with parents, like agree to disagree. But it doesn't have a great ring to it. It doesn't make my body feel good. It's actually a like, okay, there's a distancing that is created there. And so I really love that you're like, No, it's a little different than that.

Dr Hazel Grace 39:48

Mm, hmm, yeah. The spirit and the energy of agree to disagree is there's an against you're over there and I'm over here. I'm not with you, but what I'm in. Instead, the shared reality is we're understanding one another, even if our realities are different, and it's it's the understanding that is distinct from agree to disagree. Okay,

Andrea Enright 40:14

so what's the R? What's the R at the end,

Dr Hazel Grace 40:19

there's five R's actually, but the R stands for restore integrity. So the definition I use for conflict is a break in connection or trust. So that's the definition I use for conflict. And so the purpose of restore integrity is taking actionable steps to restore the trust and the connection that was broken or lost. And so I there's a menu of five different pathways for you to take actionable steps to restore that connection, restore that integrity. And so the menu, the concept of the menu, is, you know, depending on the level of our rupture, depending on how upset we we feel, we might need only one, or we might need all five, or we might need it over a three month period, or and also, the idea with the menu of the five actionable steps is it's bi directional. And so what that means is, let's say I hurt you. I could say, hey, in service of us, you know, me restoring trust, I'd like to offer me to take a course to learn how to show up better in relationship. Or I'd like to offer to, like, make you a meal. Would that work for you? Right? So it's bi directional, meaning, like I can make an offer, or if I felt hurt, I could say, like, I feel hurt and I would like for us to do a redo, so it's bi directional, and that either person can make the request or make the offers. So I'll go over the five fairly briefly. You can double click if you want more info, remorse, expressing some sort of regret, an apology, taking accountability, that one's pretty standard and straightforward slash. It's useful to know the people in your life what language resonates for them, what's important for them to hear in a remorse. And because this is very individualized, it's like, there's a book on five love languages, there's also a book on the five languages of apologies. So it's like, what resonates for some people, people need different things in the realm of remorse. So there's remorse, there is restorative actions. So that's like doing an act or a service or a thing, like replacing a thing that I broke, or, you know, my dad and I healed our childhood. He, you know, hit me growing up, and we did a beautiful repair process, and he called me the next day, and he was like, I can't go back and change what I did, but I'd like to pay for your therapy for the rest of your life, as an example of a restorative action.

Janelle Orion 42:58

Amazing. Pretty big one. Yeah,

Dr Hazel Grace 43:02

it is amazing. And I've done a lot of therapy, and trust me, so there's remorse, there's restorative actions, and then this is a, I think Janelle is gonna like this one. Then there's rewrite stories. So over in the impact, we got to claim or own or declare stories that were created. Now that we've done the repair process, are there any stories that we need to update and explicitly name and say so, like my partner last night didn't prioritize my pleasure the story I made up is they? They don't care about me as much as I care about them, but then, like, doing the repair process, and then learning is like, Oh, they just actually didn't know that that was what was happening. What's more true is they do care, and they're willing to show up in this repair conversation and, like, hear more. And so I want to update, I want to update them. And me of like, what's more true, because if we make up these stories and we don't have hygiene around updating them and cleaning them, they're going to erode and get in the way. They're going to like, we're going to be viewing them or ourselves through that lens. So I

Andrea Enright 44:14

just say, stop you there. Story hygiene, like updating stories, cleaning up stories, sweeping around them, getting a little 409, and really doing some scrubbing. Like, is this story still true? Is this still the story, or does it need, like, a facelift? Does it need a remodel? Does it need cleaned up? That's a great point. Thank you. Okay,

Dr Hazel Grace 44:37

yeah, I've never said story hygiene. I like it. Figured it

Andrea Enright 44:42

was one of your things, okay, now we can be one of your things, yeah,

Dr Hazel Grace 44:47

okay, and then revise, revise agreements. Are there any agreements that we need to revise? And in some cases, I just like them to all start with an R. Revise agreements, because in some cases it could be like, do we even need to write some or create some, or like, establish some? So are there any agreements we need to edit, revise, add, take away, whatever. And then the last one, which is my favorite. It's called redo. And redo says, now that we know what we know, if we could go both go back in time, what would both of us have done differently so that that hurt wouldn't have happened? What have we learned from this? And what I really like about redo is, while it's important for us to go backwards in time to like, help restore that trust and that connection. It actually helps us create a path in the future of how we're going to show up better. And you know, what's cool about our brains is there's a part of our brain that doesn't know the difference between visualization and mapping out how things work, and so it's actually like helping us rewire our neural pathways when we go back and we visualize them. And like, Okay, I would have said this, and then this, you would have seen that and like, actually like, the more that you can visualize and embody it or even reenact it, which is also an option, the more that it really like, deepens and gives us a path and a map for moving forward so that we could potentially not have to have those hurts again. So the redo is, is, what would we have done differently both people? Let's

Andrea Enright 46:30

summarize the repair really quick, just each letter. Okay,

Dr Hazel Grace 46:34

so the prep, the first three steps, we resource ourselves so come into a grounded state as possible, and then empathy is exploring empathy for self and other, validating our own experience, having compassion for ourself, and then empathy for others, like being curious about what was going on for them. Then when we feel resourced and explored empathy enough we go into the permission, I'd like to have a conversation about in service of I feel this level of intensity, I think it'll take this long. Are you open to the having that conversation? So that's our EP, and then that takes us into the clearing the air conversation. We start off with acknowledge, let's get on the same page about what happened. Let's get to either a simple, shared reality or complex shared reality, and then we move into the impact. And how did that have us feel? What was the impact on on us that we had that experience? And then reflecting, reflective listening, making sure you're doing reflective listening, and then the fifth step is restoring integrity, which there's five different options, remorse, redo restorative actions, rewrite stories or revise agreements.

Andrea Enright 47:51

Okay, thank you so repair. I mean, this would set any person up for a beautiful conversation about any difficult topic, including sex and intimacy, getting down to kind of where the rubber meets the road. Do people actually sit with you, Hazel Grace, and do you walk them through this conversation, or do you advise them and consult and then they go to do this on their own? I imagine both happens. But can they have you be present for these conversations? Oh

Dr Hazel Grace 48:25

yeah, yes. And all the above, I have a self paced course where people can videos and workbook and practice it on their own, and then I come in and I do spot coaching. Ideally, I'm not doing the repair process process with them. I'm inspired by people having this learning the skills and being able to do them on their own. I can, but like for you know, teach them how to fish. That's what lights me up, right? Instead of, you know, right? When people are learning the repair process, I strongly recommend that they are learning and practicing on low stakes, simple things at the beginning, just to get reps in, just to get repetition, because if you're trying to do the repair process when you are in crisis, you're not going to be able to learn and take in these new skills. And then the other thing that we say is, we have a thing called the charge scale. So the charge is identifying how hurt, upset activated you are about a thing. So like, between one and 10, one's being like, super chill. 10 being like, totally off the charts, not grounded, like, upset, mad, disassociated. So what we say is, we encourage people to try and clear out the ones and the twos and the threes as much as possible, so that they don't become seven, eight, nines and 10s and so that's one of the things that people, culture people create in their relationships, is like, I'm not going to bring up that thing because it's like, two. Too silly or petty or like, ridiculous for me to bring that up, but if they keep that culture going, then they haven't had the skill and, like, the success, of being able to address small things so they don't become big things. Yeah, so practicing on low level stakes when you're when you're learning, it's like skiing. The greens are the bunny slopes. The black diamonds are the the advanced you're not gonna like put on skis and go to the black diamonds. You're gonna go to the greens and the bunny slopes and learn how to ski on the easy slopes. I

Andrea Enright 50:31

think what I'm hearing for our bravehearts is that a great first step is to implement the repair process. About a simple topic, a simple conversation, a small con, something that's not so weighty, and I feel like that feels like a great assignment, just to start, if you're interested at all in this prepare process or using it for talking to your partner. So Hazel Grace, if someone wants to work with you, how do they do that? How they reach you?

Dr Hazel Grace 51:00

Yeah, thanks for asking. The website, Dr Hazel grace.com, is the place to go. And you can sign up for a free discovery session with me to see if we're a good fit. And then there's also, I have a self paced course on the art of repair, which includes a video series and a robust workbook to guide yourself through the process. Hazel

Janelle Orion 51:24

Grace's information is in the show notes, her website, her information like she This is an amazing podcast, and she taught us so much. But as she has said, there is practice to happen. And so whatever resources she has available on this, I highly, highly, highly recommend it. I feel like I would have saved myself an infinite amount of pain and grief and heartache in my relationships. And of course, as she said, like this isn't just for sex and intimacy. This repair process is a life skill, which is what really been kind of a summary of what we have figured out when we're when we have the skills to talk to our partners about sex and intimacy, it actually impacts all the conversations with all the people we care about, who we want to stay connected to and just so grateful. Hazel, Grace to You. To your work, your wisdom, so beautiful. Thank you for being so articulate. Like, really, yeah, your wisdom was amazing, and it was very easy to understand you clearly have studied this so much and you're so passionate about it. Yeah, I felt like I could really grasp what you were saying and say, Yes, that makes sense. Yes, I can go do that. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you so much.

Andrea Enright 52:43

Thank you, Hazel Grace, we'll see you next time bravehearts and love you. Love you. Bye.

Janelle Orion 52:52

Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission,

Andrea Enright 52:54

work with us. We offer Braveheart coaching. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at a brave heart conversation. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website. Permission to be human. Dot live you.