Ep 84: Part 11/12, Braveheart Hillary Asks What Do You REALLY Want from Sex?: How to Talk about Sex Series

In this episode of Permission to Be Human, hosts Janelle and Andrea engage in a deep conversation with single Braveheart Hillary Mendoza about navigating difficult topics, the importance of self discovery, the polarities of head vs. heart, giving vs. receiving and abundance vs. scarcity. There’s deep wisdom and self-awareness. You’ll hear:

--How Hillary learned to work with her body (not her head) to make a decision

--Why fixing herself didn’t fix the issue

--How the Permission to be Human workshop helped her identify a damaged dynamic

--Why knowing how your own love expresses has to come first

--That if we want to avoid suffering, we must voice our desires ASAP

--Why 80% of intimacy satisfaction is only good enough if its the RIGHT 80%

Learn more about Hillary and Archipelago Clubs at archipelagodenver.com

TRANSCRIPT: Janelle Orion 00:01

Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts. Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth. If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way we got you. Okay, brave hearts, if you want to, like, just hear what it's like from someone who's willing to share so vulnerably about life, about relationships, about heartbreak, about mismatch of desires like I'm just so in awe of Hillary's ability to express without breath, without blame, the differences between she and her partner and why their relationship really struggled on sex and intimacy. Andrea, what'd you think? Yeah, Hillary

Andrea Enright 01:37

was so articulate, so eloquent in describing how she got out of her head and into her body to make decisions about who she wanted to be with, what she wanted, what her body wanted, what her desires were, and how she learned every step of the way in having conversations about sex and intimacy with her partner. She was

Janelle Orion 02:03

amazing, but yeah, she was like, an embodied example of everything we've taught in this whole series. Yes, she just gave us, like, the real life, like, here's how it is and here's how it plays out.

Andrea Enright 02:12

Yes, and she was just very honest, right? Like, it was so good to hear someone be that open and honest so that we can all feel less alone and benefit from someone else's experience.

Janelle Orion 02:21

Yeah, we have deep gratitude to her for I mean, I learned something. Yeah, Hilary

Andrea Enright 02:26

talked about sex and intimacy with an attitude of abundance that is very remarkable.

Janelle Orion 02:33

Welcome to permission to be human. Brave hearts. We're so excited to be back. I'm Janelle

Andrea Enright 02:39

And I'm Andrea, and this is the next installment of our 12 part series on how to talk to your partner about sex and intimacy. We have interviewed each other. We've interviewed experts, amazing experts. We have interviewed brave hearts, our listeners, and it's been an amazing series. We've learned so much, and we're really excited for the next episode. Today, we have Hilary Mendoza, and she'll be joining us for a little Braveheart conversation. Yes,

Janelle Orion 03:15

and Hilary not only is a friend, but is also the manager of a social club and Ayurvedic practitioner. She lives in an epic one bedroom apartment here in Denver, Colorado. She's a local girl with us, and she is super into wellness, weightlifting, relationships, painting matcha herbs, baths, Tea Parties, wildflowers and walks who wants to meet her. I love that list. And Hilary has been to three of our permission to be human workshops, and so we have gotten to, yeah, talk in person, in real life with her. And so it's really an honor and a pleasure to have you on the podcast. Hillary, thank you.

Hillary 04:03

Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor and pleasure for me.

Janelle Orion 04:09

Yay, honor and pleasure. That's the right that's the right words, honor and pleasure. Let's move that. Let's put those together. So, Hillary, what made you come to three permission to be human workshops, that's my first question. What? What is your experience and what kept you coming back?

Hillary 04:27

Great question. So Janelle reached out to me, inviting me to the first one, and I my first interaction with Janelle was not with that. It was somewhere totally different at a women's gathering, and it was so much fun, and we were so playful and like the prompt was intimate, and we just went really deep together. So I knew that whatever she was up to was gonna be epic. So I drove to. To the house. What was the house called the goddess temple, the goddess temple. And it was such a beautiful experience to be with you all, and then you brought permission to be human to or the Brave Heart conversations to archipelago, which is the place I manage. So I was like, Yes, please. More, please. And it's just been amazing ever since to be able to open up and get really beautiful feedback from the two of you, along with other women as well. What

Andrea Enright 05:31

do you remember like taking away or learning, or what were you feeling when you're at the permission to be human workshops?

Hillary 05:39

I think I was feeling really stuck in a relationship dynamic that wasn't working for me, and I kept blaming myself for that, and feeling like if I could just figure out how to fix myself, that that that would shift my relationship, and that would fix the issues. And I think through processing it with a group of women who have been through different things, and being able to understand it through different perspectives, finally, kind of landing on, oh, this is like, just not the right energetic match. It's just not working. It's not about me fixing a thing, and I really needed that.

Andrea Enright 06:26

That's beautiful. Sounds like you really transformed from I'm the problem to this relationship is not correct. Totally.

Janelle Orion 06:38

Hilary, I imagine so many brave hearts, including myself, can resonate with that. Yeah, just that feeling when when a relationship isn't working, that, you know, I think it is important to, like, look at ourselves first, but sometimes we take on more than what is ours. So I'm curious if you're in talking to in figuring out that this relationship energetic wasn't correct for you. Did you have conversations with your partner about it to help you determine? Yeah,

Hillary 07:12

very much. In like, halfway through our relationship, I was hitting this point where I was like, I can't figure out, what is my intuition versus what is fear versus what are like relationship patterns in my subconscious that I'm not understanding, and I'm like, I don't want to sabotage it. I don't want to come from fear. I want to listen to my intuition, but I'm not trusting it, and so I got a relationship therapist to just work with me on and what we kind of landed on in that therapy was that I needed to actually voice my desires and what I wanted and what I would love to see happen in the relationship places that were not working, places that were working, emphasizing what was working, and shifting what wasn't gonna

Janelle Orion 08:09

pause you there for a second, because that was just great. Yeah. So much there.

Andrea Enright 08:15

Go ahead. Janelle, you can go ahead and go I just knew that was a nice little wrap up right there, perfect. So a couple of things. I just one, is it it sounds like you lost connection with your intuition and lost trust and couldn't discern between like, Wait, you said, is it my intuition? Is it my fear? Is it my relationship patterns? Can you tell us more about how you ended up discerning which voice to listen to. Yeah,

Hillary 08:45

it's always easier in retrospect, of course, but I will say, I will say, in the very, very beginning of that relationship, like week one of exploration with this person, my intuition was telling me no, but I was like, but this is different, and this is not the same pattern that I do, and this person is so kind, and they're showing up really sweet. And so then I was like, not trusting the No. It was like, I needed a reason, and I couldn't find the reason, instead of just trusting that it was a no, and I didn't need to know the reason,

Janelle Orion 09:25

whoa. So good. Mic drop moment.

Andrea Enright 09:31

Yeah. Okay, so you were not trusting the no, yeah.

Hillary 09:36

And another really interesting thing that was happening was that I had this person and I had another person, both pursuing me, the other person, very sexy, very electric, very narcissistic, and I wanted to go towards that because the chemistry and the passion was stronger, but I was like, No, that's my passion. Earned, and I refuse to go. And I think what I didn't understand in that moment was I'm being presented two options, but that doesn't mean that I need to choose either option. So good, yeah, like, I could have just said no to both right, because neither were right.

Janelle Orion 10:24

Next is so important. Yeah, so I'm curious, when you said that you don't have to know the reason, but could you feel it in your body, and if you could, like, where did you feel it, and what did it feel like this? Know that you ultimately doubted.

Hillary 10:39

I think when, when my brain speeds up and I start going into, like, a lot of questioning and, like, I don't know this is this, but this is that, and I start going out of my body and into my head and into trying to figure it out in air quotes. I think that's a big sign for me. I think I also feel it in my stomach and I feel it in my heart. I actually kind of feel it in this whole like central channel of my body that just it feels off, like it doesn't feel aligned or harmonious, and I start worrying, questioning, doubting, whereas when things feel like a yes to me, it's like, my heart is open. I feel expansive. I feel excited. I'm like, Oh, my God, this thing is amazing. I wasn't feeling that, uh huh, but I'm guessing

Janelle Orion 11:31

though there were things you said he was kind and there was a few other things that were that you mentioned. So how were you tracking those, or sensing those? Were those in your body, or were those in your mind. Like, how did that play out?

Hillary 11:42

I think they weren't in my body, and they were more in my mind. And I remember, like, I would talk to people, even the first, like, three months of dating this person, and they're like, How is it, how's it going? And I would, I would say every time, I don't know, it's so sweet. Like, he's just so sweet, and it just feels different, like there's just such sweet and he's really consistent. So it was like, those were good values. But I wasn't like, oh my god, this is so exciting. I'm so sure. It kept being like, I don't know. I don't really know, right?

Andrea Enright 12:21

And so it sounds like that. I just wanted to spur brave hearts out there. Values are good, and they can be very aligned with you in your head, but not if you're not present in your body. So I'm curious, how did you get back into your body when you were living in your head? So much about this particular person,

Hillary 12:41

it took me a really long time, so I was basically in question this whole time. In month four of us dating, he had mentioned something about wanting to go on tour with his band, with his music, and we had just had sex, and we were laying together, and it was like, he was like, Hey, where are you? Because I was really in my head, and I was like, I just keep thinking about how I can't see our futures together, like you want to go on tour and have this whole band life, and I want a home and a garden and, like a grounded life, and I want to be in one place, and I don't really want to be groupy, and I was just trying to open up the conversation, but the, I guess, the way that I said, it really triggered him, and he felt that I was then just using him for a fun time, but I didn't see him as, like, a long term potential partner, which wasn't necessarily true. I was just trying to explore like, Well, what do you think about our futures? And so that, I think, was one huge ripple in our relationship that now looking back at like it created so many things, so many issues, honestly.

Janelle Orion 14:03

So do you feel that like there was a better way you could have had that conversation? Yeah, I'm curious.

Hillary 14:13

Yeah, I think, I think I could have asked it a different way and given him more context for what I was thinking, but I hadn't fully thought it out yet, and it just kind of came out in the way that it came out. And, like, I wish I would have been like, Hey, can we talk about our futures? Like, how do you see this working? What do you see for me and you, together with your band and touring and with my life here in Denver, and you see that working? Do you see a long term thing, or is this, yeah, just like just being more curious, instead of saying, I'm not seeing how this could work. But. Uh, also wanting his input, like that, that wasn't really the best way to do it.

Andrea Enright 15:05

Okay, I'm hearing you would have set up a container, like, more intentionally to talk to him, yeah, and was he open to that after you had this kind of, this more spontaneous conversation, so

Hillary 15:21

that actually was the first time, like, we had not ever fought, or like, if little things had come up, we were really good at just like, talking through them in the moment. But in that moment, he got super shut down and very angry, and was like, I need space. And we ended up, like, walking away. He needed, like, 40 hours of space without talking to me. And I think from then on, there was, I thought that we had repaired, and for him, we hadn't repaired. And he, his belief was that I was just using him for a fun time, which I had no idea, and I was still very much in the relationship, but it impacted the way he showed up to the relationship, because he didn't think that I was all in and so he didn't want to be supportive or loving, or to the extent that he could have been, because he was kind of like, this has its time limit.

Janelle Orion 16:23

Did you end up kind of figuring that, you know, was that kind of part of the end of the relationship conversation where you figured that out, that you guys ended up in just different places from a breakdown in communication

Hillary 16:35

we had, like, after that 48 hours, we came back together and we talked about it, and we repaired. And we were like, We want to be together. But I think he didn't, he didn't quite let me know what was really going on for him, so I don't think the repair fully happened. And a couple months later, he we got in a fight about something, and instead of us repairing it, he was like, I can't put time and energy into this, because I don't feel you being all in and so I need two weeks of no contact space, which I gave to him in a very challenging way. And again, we came back together. It was like we wanted to be together, but that was really painful for me. I felt completely like rejected and like shoved out. And I think we just weren't having great communication, like we were and we weren't. And what I learned is that he didn't feel like he could say no to me, so he just kept pushing me away energetically because he wasn't able to say no, which meant his yeses weren't actual and they came with a lot of resentment.

Andrea Enright 17:59

I love that, he's like, Oh, the yeses weren't trustworthy. And did you and he both come to that together? It was just you realizing that. Or

Hillary 18:10

I was like, Oh, he doesn't know how to say no to me. He was aware. He was like, I have a really hard time saying no to you. He's like, because I want to do these things that I want to give but then I'm depleted and not taking care of taking care of myself and so and I was like, I know, and when you say yes and you show up, you're showing up with intense resentment, which is unspoken, but which I can feel very viscerally. And I'd rather you not be there and just say no to me, because it's not quality at that point.

Andrea Enright 18:50

So Hilary, earlier, you talked about learning to voice your desires and that you felt like that would be a good step toward communication and grace and harmony with your partner. Can you tell us more about that went, or how you approached? Yeah, I

Hillary 19:09

think before I started seeing my relationship therapist, I kept thinking, like, from the manifestation world, kind of thought forms of like, if I just get my energy right, if I change my energetic, if I'm grateful to him and hold him in high regard and emphasize what is going well, then the relationship is going to work. So for a while, I was focusing on that, and it wasn't working. I mean, it was working. It was working to a certain degree, like, of course, everyone loves, like, praise and gratitude. So that was, like, good, but stop

Andrea Enright 19:53

you for a second. I want to compliment you on turning inward and saying I'm going to change the energy. And they really. Relationship by working on myself and putting something forward, like, that's a great first step, and just well done in in attempting that first thank you. Yeah.

Hillary 20:10

And I was like, Okay, well, what do I want? I was like, I want, I want to be, like, adored, cared for, chosen, like, pursued and, and I think this is where that concept skewed a little bit for me, because I was like, Okay, if I want that, I need to give that. But I actually don't think that that is the accurate equation in feminine masculine dynamics. So I started over giving. I started over giving, like, a lot, and I was, like, holding space for him a lot more, and making him food, and getting him his favorite things. And, like, I basically became the pursuer because of that skewed energetic. So one that was one thing that was happening.

Janelle Orion 21:01

How did you get to that awareness of recognizing that you were over, giving in that is a way to get what you wanted.

Hillary 21:13

One, I was exhausted, and then two, when it wasn't being reciprocated. But then it became expected, because I was doing it. Then I started becoming resentful, and I'm like, wait, but I'm also the prize, and I'm not being treated like that. And I just felt like you can feel when something is reciprocal. It's like energy goes out, energy goes in, energy goes out. And it wasn't like I was, I mean, I don't know. I guess it depends on how you look at it. My intention wasn't doing it in a manipulative way, of like, I give him this so he gives me that. It was more like if I maybe I need to generate more of the giving energy, and then more of the giving energy will happen. But that's just not what was occurring. And, and so I just kept doubling down and doubling down and giving more and and then I'm like, I'm fucking exhausted. I'm hurt, because there's not like care, like being directed back towards me, and I feel like I'm carrying this relationship. And then come the relationship therapist being like, what do you want and what do you desire? And that was contradicting what I was learning from YouTube, of being in your feminine energy and and not asking for things, but just allowing yourself to receive them. And I'm like, I was really confused. And I'm like, I don't know. None of this fucking makes sense. None of it's fucking working. Like I want it to be working. So I'm gonna try this, which is giving my like, like, sharing vulnerably, what I desire my relationship to look like, what I want my connections to look like, what my values are and what I want. So proud of you. That's amazing. Thank you. And a lot of this was in the realm of sex and intimacy, because I feel like our relationship was actually really good on so many levels, like our communication was really beautiful, our care for each other was really beautiful. We didn't like fight, if like and like I said earlier, if problems arose, we would work them out really well, like just through conversation and under trying to understand each other. So that was all good. My issue was in, like, love languages, through sex and intimacy. And part of that was like I knew where he was at, emotionally, not having much capacity, financially, not having much capacity. He was spread really thin with work and trying to figure a bunch of things out. So I knew that I couldn't have expectations or desire. I mean, I could have desires, but like, they weren't really going to be met with, being taken on dates or taken out to dinner or things like that. So my desires were really residing in sex and intimacy, touch and like, quality of connection, quality time. I

Janelle Orion 24:40

feel this entire conversation is sort of like walking us through in real time, what it like, really, how hard it is to be in relationship with someone that you love. Because what I'm no, I heard you say is here was a breakdown in communication, and yet the communication was great. Oh, I was giving too much. He wasn't giving back to me, but yet the care was there between you. And so what I'm hearing is the paradox, right, where it's not like anything is always one way or the other. And so a lot of what you were trying to discern was, okay, it's working in this direction over here, in this area, but it's not working over here, but, well, because it's working sometimes, and maybe it can eventually work over here, right? Like, that's part of the confusion I'm hearing. Is that what I call, and we call, you know, the imagined reality, which is, well, it should be able to work because it's working over here, as the should, right? So this part should work totally.

Hillary 25:41

And I remember, like, processing with my friend one day on a walk, and she was like, Yeah, it sounds like that relationship, like you have 70% of what you want. And she's like, are you willing to live with 70% and I'm like, No, I hate getting a C. I don't want to see I don't want my relationship to be a C, and then you're like, faced with, okay, I have 70% of what I want, and I have to end it and go to 0% of what I want, then For the possibility of maybe getting more than 70% and that fucked with me, right,

Andrea Enright 26:25

right? I mean, so there's, there's two things happening here. It's like saying, Nope, I don't want 70 I'll take zero. What's coming up for me is the question of, can we ever get 100% you know, or can we get 70% where the other 30 is like lower priority for us. So, oh, well, what do you think?

Hillary 26:45

I mean, I like to aim for a solid B minus so, like, this is actually so good, so in bit so business. But everything is everything, right? Everything reflects everything else. But my, one of my business teachers, would always say, just get it done. It doesn't have to be perfect. Aim for a solid B minus. And I'm like, Cool if I'm in the B range, but like in school, I was not okay with getting C's like, I was a 4.0 student. I wanted to do really well, and that could be problematic. And like, I've let go of a lot of perfectionistic shit, but I still feel like I want more than 70% in a relationship, particularly, like you said, and I think that Andrea that was like, Really spot on, is like, but what is the 30% that's missing? If it's not part of your value or like, high, high caliber love language, then fine, whatever I don't care like, but if it's the part that I need most in relationship, which it was, then that 30% becomes really fucking important.

Andrea Enright 28:03

Yeah, hear a lot of clarity, like with moving forward with what you want.

Hillary 28:09

Yeah, deeply. And

Janelle Orion 28:11

in some ways, I also then wonder if that ratio was actually off right. Were you actually getting 30% and missing the 70% because if you look at like, the thing that was the most important to you, given the context of what was available to you, it wasn't there at all. And I can, I can relate to to that, and, like, really minimizing the percentage of what was valuable to me and saying, Well, I can live without this. It's only 3% but actually it was the thing that lit me up and has me feel free and alive, and is in my body and is in that joint and that radiance. So we might also have skewed,

Andrea Enright 28:58

yeah, I think brave hearts. And what we're saying here is, like, you know, when you're talking to your partner and deeming, you know, what's the energy like? Is this the right fit? How is our communication? How? How do I feel in my body? Not surprisingly, it cannot be put in a linear percentage system, like grapes. It just, it can't right because, because what's important to you might not be important to someone else, and so we have to think about the weight of our values, not just our values.

Janelle Orion 29:32

I'm also curious, when I you know was in a relationship that I was evaluating for a long time, like I didn't have these skills of, like, knowing to listen to my body. So what I'm curious about Hillary with you is, did this relationship teach you something about listening to your body that you feel was different than prior so that you will take into your next relationship? Ideally, right? If we can pattern break about, like, Oh, I'm feeling. Something that or my body's telling me something, and I'm gonna listen now. I'm gonna prioritize listening to that. Yes,

Hillary 30:07

yes. I feel like I just got a huge test by the universe of this and I'm so fucking proud of myself, like I haven't been this proud of myself in a really long time. Somebody has been asking me how and asked to pursue me. And all of the things were aligned, all of the concepts were aligned, what we wanted for our lives, all of that we have a former relationship, all of that, there's attraction, everything. But something in me was like, No, and so I literally just he asked if he could pursue me and take me out and court me, which I love, by the way. I'm like, Oh my God, that's what I want. Sign me up. Yeah. I sat in meditation, and the answer was like no, and I'm like, why, and I could think of like, little reasons why, but mostly the answer was no, and I was like, Cool. I don't need to know why, and I don't need to tell this person the reasons why. I just need to tell them I adore you. I think you're great. And for whatever reason, my intuition is saying no on this, and I know what it's like to override that, and it causes years of pain and suffering, and I'm not gonna put either of us through that, so I'm gonna lovingly say no,

Andrea Enright 31:35

another mic drop moment like you, you didn't need to know why the No. You didn't need to tell him why the No, no, same

Hillary 31:43

shit was happening too. Two suitors at the same time, suitors like, We're fucking in the 1800s there's your 10, two suitors at the same time, literally, like, Come live on this property. I want to have your babies, let's get married. And I'm like, oh, here are my two options. Wait, no, here are two possible options, of perhaps many options, neither of which feel right. So I'm gonna say no to both.

Janelle Orion 32:16

Oh, my God. Mg, like, Yes, you had a full on redo, a full on redo. This is redo. This is your attitude of abundance that is getting you here, right? Instead of scarcity. Well, like, literally, I was just talking to a friend over the weekend, you know, and her mom saying to her, like, Well, you better hurry and go find someone. Because, because, why? Because, like, because there's not enough, right? And you're operating from this opposite principle is like there are plenty of people for me to connect with, and these two options are not right. You can feel it in your body. Wow. You're such a brave heart.

Hillary 32:55

Thanks. I want to tell you something else related to your other question, please. Yeah. Okay, about so when I started speaking to my desires in that relationship, and I started asking for what I wanted, and I think I wasn't doing that because I was afraid that if I started saying what I actually wanted, I would be rejected, and then I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to deal with the pain of rejection, which my worst fear came true, and it was really fucking hard, like deeply challenging, and I think needed to happen to be like, okay, and That's fine, but like, I started asking for what I wanted sexually and intimately, and I started those conversations and what came about through that which I think if I would have had these conversations way earlier on, when I started feeling it in the first place, It would have ended a lot of suffering way sooner, because by not speaking to those things, it's like, Well, neither of us knew then that we weren't a match in that way.

Janelle Orion 34:11

So are you saying that you were not having conversations about sex and intimacy in the beginning? Because maybe in the beginning it was just it was good and good enough, good enough. And so then, but once you started feeling, oh, like there's something else here that I want, but I'm not going to say it, because I'm afraid of the rejection. But if you that's the moment that you're like, if I had started to speak my desires, then, then you would have both figured out that actually you're just not a match. And like, the rejection might have been there, but it would have been there because you're not a match. Yeah,

Hillary 34:47

and like, I was saying things a little bit about, like, during sex, like I was definitely having conversations and being like, I want to try this. Or like, I really like being touched, like this, or. Things like that, and it would happen when I said it, and then it was like, the next time we would have sex, it was like, That conversation never happened. And it was so confusing to me, because I was like, I know that you're capable of doing the thing because you've done it, and we've had incredible sex that time, and then it just reverts back to mediocre sex after and it's so confusing to me. And so then I started getting more specific with the conversations of like, I need X, Y and Z time before you fuck me. I need Am I allowed to say that on here? Sorry, you are okay. Okay. I want to be touched like this and like I'm like, I literally and completely am in love with you, and my expression of that is to love you through my body. And I need my body to express that, otherwise I feel like blocked and like uncomfortable because I'm not having my like, true expression of love expressed through intimacy with you, which is often sex.

Andrea Enright 36:14

So I'm hearing like you should would have started earlier, and you would have articulated it more specifically what you want. But I'm also hearing Hillary that you're like you know how your love expresses which is just such a beautiful thing, like your knowledge and certainty of that, the confidence with which you just said it even on this podcast, like which I'm sure you could do it even more beautifully to a partner in bed or across the dinner table, is, to me, like, that's, that's the work. You know what you're doing is like, I know how my love expresses, and I know how I want to receive that love. And I will say also that I hear you being flexible with form too. Like, like, Okay, well, he, he can't take me to dinner. He can't do these things. So this is what I would like, where I would like to have it

Hillary 37:05

totally and I'm like, it's free. Great point. It's free and you don't need anything, but you actually do right? You need presence and capacity, yes, right?

Janelle Orion 37:24

Yes, and desire. And so I'm curious, you know, in terms of Love Languages, right? Was intimacy just not his thing? It was he, you know, someone who would rather have done, like, acts of service. And I don't know what him wanting you to do something just totally different. Or, you know, so like, was it a Mitch mismatch of desire, and that's why, had you spoken to it earlier? You would have figured out that you needed to meet there,

Hillary 37:47

yeah? Because once we got down to it, and we actually, like, really sussed out the details of it, I was like, I would have sex every day, sometimes multiple times a day. Like, I don't need sex every day, but that's a pretty natural progression of me being with my lover and kissing them and wanting to, like, express it to the depth that I want. And I found out that for him, he would only want to do that, like, maybe a couple times a week. So I'm like, okay, that's kind of normal, I guess, like people having different desires for sex. But at the same time, what also arose from that conversation was that he was using porn, and so he was like, coming still every day, but didn't want to be doing that with me, and not because he wasn't into me, but we found out that we have sex for very different reasons. And so I was like, Oh, I have sex to express love and to feel connected. He had sex to release, and it was like a stress release, and I demanded a lot of presence in sex, whereas for him, he wanted to check out insects. So it wasn't, it wasn't life giving to him, because he had to be present with me. And he didn't want to be present. He wanted to be releasing. And so the energetic of our sex was for very different reasons. And so it was like more energy for him to be with me when he didn't have energy to give because he was stressed in all these other places of his life. Wow. Wow.

Janelle Orion 39:40

Yeah, that was a double wow that you just gotten. Thank you, swear. Okay, so Hillary, your eloquence and like ability to describe that was really, I just, I just want to say thank you, because you're speaking to something that most of us never. Forget to talk about and so really get to hear just like, the nitty gritty of like, here it is, being in a relationship, having your differences, and what you're also saying is, like, without judgment, you're simply saying you had two totally different ways of looking at sex then most of us probably, I don't know that I've ever even thought of it the way that you just said it. So I'm gonna think about that now. Oh, I'm like, Oh, my God. I'm like, I was so right that you were gonna be amazing on this podcast.

Andrea Enright 40:32

Like, I was like, What about Hillary? Like, she would be so great. Like, these are you're very articulate and very self aware, and, I mean, I am learning as you're speaking. Oh

Janelle Orion 40:42

yeah, thank you so sweet, so brave hearts. That's, you know, that's something for you to think about. Maybe it's our homework, but we'll see. I don't know if we're quite there yet, but I just want us to point this out, is to think about and reflect on what Hillary just said, is, what do you get out of sex? And then have a conversation with your partner about what they get out of sex. Yeah,

Andrea Enright 41:04

what do they get out of sex? Why do they do it? What kind of energy is being released or consumed during that for them in relation to their life? And obviously, it can also be, you know, sometimes it's this way and sometimes it's that way. It doesn't have to present, but nonetheless, like there's probably a pattern or a recognition here that you might not have seen, because I'm going to think about it for myself. Yeah, well, I know. I know what my answer is. I know my answer is. I'm so I'm I'm a sucker for presence and eye gazing. For sure, give me your heart

Hillary 41:39

right now. Yeah,

Janelle Orion 41:46

that's so funny. Yeah, love it. Love it. So

Andrea Enright 41:51

I'm curious. Hillary, how does this relationship feel like it was a milestone because you learned so much, or does this? Has this happened multiple times, and you're always kind of taking little bits away from different relationships?

Hillary 42:06

I mean, I feel like I've learned so much every from every relationship that I've ever been in, and I like, intentionally extract the wisdom from it. Like last night, I even wrote a whole page of like, what were all of my parts in this last relationship that, like, led to it going the way that it did? And I was like, oh, okay, over giving and literally living on hope instead of taking in the actual actions that were happening and going off the reality, like, like, there's just so many things that were my part in playing out in this. But, yeah, I feel like I've learned so much in relationships. But this one particularly, I feel like I, you know, it's always like, you're refining, your refining, and then you have this thing that, like, suddenly you're like, Oh, this is like, who I am and how I operate, and I'm not willing to like, act like, that's not the truth for me anymore.

Janelle Orion 43:12

Yeah, so you found like, your baseline of like in any like you. You found your where, where you can say no because you're like, it's not life affirming to me if I don't have these things met, no matter how great some of this other stuff is, right?

Hillary 43:27

And it's like, when I'm not living by my like, standards and values, I'm living in hell, like every time wow, and creating. I'm literally creating it by choosing things that don't align with my values and standards.

Andrea Enright 43:44

Oh, it's really big, some deep knowledge in yourself to just keep coming back to. And it

Janelle Orion 43:54

takes a tremendous amount of courage, right? Because I know you know like you want to be in a relationship, right? Yeah, but so to have to, have to keep saying, I want to take 0% I'm still choosing 0% still zero No, because you want to b minus not A, C, right? No, but, but you, but really, because, you know now, oh, these are the things that are the life like. These are the non negotiables. Here's where the life affirming attributes are and an energetic connection between me and a partner, and you can speak them in a first day conversation of rvdsm or however, you just know what they are.

Hillary 44:37

Yeah, totally like one thing that in my relationship, in this last relationship, he would say to me all the time is like, he's like, I love you so much. You're my best friend. And I would always feel like I don't want a best friend, like I have so many friends. I want a lover. Like, like. Don't want to hang out. I don't want to Netflix and chill without the fucking like I I want a lover. I have friends like secondarily. It's really cool that we can also be best friends, but that's not primary for me, and that's a big difference

Andrea Enright 45:17

for me. So much clarity. That's a lot of clarity to come into a relationship, any

Janelle Orion 45:23

bravehearts who are listening, who are single and who want to love her first, right, like we're just saying, just saying, Be clear about that. Be clear about that from the beginning well, and that Hillary is here, so she is totally Yeah, there she is. There she is.

Andrea Enright 45:44

So Hillary, if someone wants to co work at Archipelago or reach you online, how do they do that?

Hillary 45:48

So they can find me, they can email me at hello at archipelago clubs.com or they can go on the website archipelago denver.com and book a building tour with me.

Janelle Orion 46:02

I just feel so grateful to you and your vulnerability that you shared with us one of our last brave hearts spoke about like you can be open all you want, but if you're only open 90% back to percentages, only open 90% and not the last 10% then it really what risks are you taking? I really feel you giving all of yourself to us to learn from your experience, and so that I was want to commend and honor that your this journey that you just went on, which was really fucking painful, and you learned a lot. But you know, just because you learn a lot doesn't mean it has to be great that there are others who are going to learn from your experience, because you're willing to share it with us today. Yeah? Thank you so

Andrea Enright 46:45

much. Thank you.

Hillary 46:48

It's really meaningful to hear

Janelle Orion 46:49

beautiful Yeah, you are the absolute epitome of a brave heart right here. Yeah,

Hillary 46:55

thank you.

Janelle Orion 46:58

Okay, brave hearts, you've got your homework, so you're gonna think about why you have sex, what you get out of it, and then have that, if you're in a partnership, have a conversation with your partner about it. And if you're not, think about sharing that really early on, on a first or second date with the person you are interested in. Yeah,

Andrea Enright 47:20

exactly. Thank you, rave hearts for listening. We love you. We're so glad that you've tuned in. We support you and we'll see you next time. Yeah,

Janelle Orion 47:30

and just to if you're in Denver, we are hosting permission to be human workshops every month at archipelago in downtown Denver, where Hillary is the social manager. So we would love to meet you in person and have these rich conversations in real life, because they are really meaningful, and they're to get the perspectives of multiple people, and we're doing them in a co Ed this next couple of rounds. So for people who want to check it out, everyone's invited, yay. Thank you.

Hillary 48:03

Thank you so much. Thank

Janelle Orion 48:05

you. Bye, brave hearts. Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission, work with us. We offer Braveheart coaching. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at a Braveheart conversation. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website, permission to be human. Dot live. You.