Ep 85: Part 12/12, Janelle and Her Lover Talk Awkwardness, Vulnerability & Pleasure: How to Talk about Sex Series
- Janelle & Andrea
- 2 days ago
- 35 min read
In a detour from their usual dynamic, Andrea interviews Janelle and her lover, John, about their sex and intimacy conversations amidst their soul-led, comet relationship! Yes, you read right. Comet. There’s deep honesty, vulnerability and some serious WTF moments as they explain how they took responsibility for their own experience and got oh-so-vulnerable, even amidst an awkward conversation, which led to more pleasure. There’s a nod to the RBDSM conversation, ISTA and an explanation of comet relationships.
You’ll hear:
--Why a lack of agenda can lead to a lot more ease
--How to recognize and prevent intimacy loss when discomfort sets in
--An example of Janelle voicing of her own boundaries around 10 PM
--How a reflection plus a request enhances communication
--Why processing triggers can turn into a feedback loop
--How deep vulnerability led to more pleasure! Seriously!
--How they navigated a feeling mismatch in their sexual experience
TRANSCRIPT:
Andrea Enright 00:01
Struggling to discuss sex and intimacy with your partner, not feeling met, seen or heard in your relationships. I'm Janelle And I'm Andrea. We're two midlife Mavericks sharing our own experiences, messy AF and no regrets with marriage, divorce, polyamory and pleasure. We've learned that when you're brave enough to figure out what you want and ask for it, with partners, friends, family and most importantly, yourself, you'll feel more alive and free question everything, especially your mother's advice. There's no rom com formula for this. But don't panic. Being alone matters, honey, I can't miss you if you don't leave, what if your breakup could be your breakthrough? Our podcast is for brave hearts.
Janelle Orion 00:45
Anyone who seeks or has found the courage to confront their fears and limiting beliefs about breaking societal norms in the spirit of finding their truth.
Andrea Enright 00:54
If you're seeking permission to be brave in your relationships and want to feel left alone along the way we got you.
Janelle Orion 01:07
Okay, Bravehearts, this is a different kind of episode coming up. Andrea just interviewed me and one of my lovers, John who and just he and I just discussed kind of in real time, this like one incredible date that we have had so far. So it's a completely different type of episode. And Andrew did a great job navigating interviewing both of us. And I would say from my end, like, I hope you, I hope you get a lot out of it. You're gonna hear like, I live a very alternative life, but it just I tried to be as concrete as possible and give as many examples as possible of how to actually live into the tools of that I have learned that Andrea and I talk about all the time of how to talk to our partners about sex and intimacy. Yeah, in this episode, you will hear real life examples of how more and more and more vulnerability led to more pleasure. You'll hear about leading with desire when reflecting to each other and having these difficult conversations about sex and intimacy and also that pleasure is within is pleasure is inside of us.
Andrea Enright 02:17
Yes, honor your boundaries. Have no agenda and be committed to your container. This is an especially juicy episode all about Janelle and her lover John. So brave hearts, you're gonna love this so real time, so raw, so honest.
Janelle Orion 02:39
Thanks for listening.
Andrea Enright 02:45
Hi, brave hearts. Welcome to permission to be human. I'm Andrea and I'm Janelle, and today, Janelle will be our host and our guest. If you've been listening. This is our final installment of our 12 part series in how to talk to your partner about sex and intimacy, we have had some major mic drop moments. We've had some really good wisdom nuggets. We've interviewed experts, we've interviewed each other, and now we are interviewing bravehearts. Today we'll be interviewing Janelle and one of her lovers, John. Okay,
Janelle Orion 03:24
I'm already getting a little warm, warm in the collar here, racing, racing. So what I'm gonna do is have Janelle And John introduce themselves in their current situation, and then we'll get to the fun questions. Yeah, hi, Brave Heart. Many of you know I live in Denver. I have two female housemates, but in terms of relationships, I consider myself solo, poly, and what that means is that I am in relationship with myself first, and from that place, then I relate to others.
Andrea Enright 04:02
Thank you. And John, what about
John Wolfstone 04:04
you? Yeah, I'm John wolfstone. I'm currently in the Bay Area California. Yeah, I'm in a life transition wander. But I know Janelle from Colorado, where I'm from, and you know, I'd say that my primary partner in life is the Goddess, and that's something I've been cultivating for years, and that I think I'm in a process of understanding how humans fit into that after that keeps strengthening and deepening. Me and Janelle have a curious, interesting container unfolding that I guess we'll get into here. Thanks for sharing.
Janelle Orion 04:47
Yeah, I would describe our container, and John, feel free to elaborate on it. I call it a comment, and I'm forgetting brave hearts, if you've talked about this or not before on the podcast. Past, but where, you know, like, two people come together for a period of time, whether it's for a few hours or a few days, and they really are in presence, with intention and attention on one another. And when, then when we leave, like we're recharged and we're nourished, and we feel like all excited, and we bring that energy back into our lives, but not we're not actually in contact on the everyday. And so John and I are just, in a way, starting out on this exploration of we don't see each other very often, but when we do, there's a lot of intention and presence that we bring to each other, beautiful. Okay, so I'm curious about that, but John, I'd like to hear your version now.
John Wolfstone 05:43
I mean, I feel called just to share maybe the, like, really short story about how this came to be. You're asking for details. So I met Janelle about, like, a year and some change ago at a birthday party of one of our friends, Janelle, who I understand that you both talked to earlier. And when I met Janelle, I recognized her as this archetype that has been coming back as a comet in my life of this very elegant, beautiful, confident, Regal woman that in some ways scares the shit out of me, because it somehow also like matches some of my deepest core wounds. So I met Janelle then, and I was like, Ooh, I feel turned on. And I was like, I'm sure this woman does not like like me and I we like. Didn't have much contact that night, and then somehow later, I got invited to her 50th birthday party, which I was helping in this ritual role with. And we got to deepen a bit more there. But then, really it was a year later, at Janelle his 50th birthday, which just happened a few months ago, that life put me and Janelle on a similar track, because I ended up giving her a ride, and we really hit it off. And I felt just this contact and this connection when we started talking about her work and my work and the overlaps, and I just felt this growing attraction and kind of daring in myself to really name it and name my desire. And there came a point over the course of this ritual evening where I was like, wow, Janelle, like, essentially, I think you're hot. Like, I desire you. I desire your soul, and I I want to go deeper with you. Like, how can that happen? And then this is how this conversation around being a comet and what that means, and what we're both looking for, and it just really matched that. It seems that our souls have something they want to, like trade. You know, there's some soul medicine that wants to come through and like that wants to ride on the wings of Eros, and we started creating really, like playfully, this quite delicious vision of a container that's very contained and strong, but very much not like you're going to be my person and I'm going to be your partner, and like none of the I guess, attachments that often happen, that we often feel we need, as humans, to be in sexuality with each other. And something's begun to unfold that's, yeah, quite alternative, I'd say, quite mature and very juicy.
Andrea Enright 08:34
Okay, so I think I'm hearing that to create a comment relationship, there has to be a really matching vision.
John Wolfstone 08:40
Yeah. I mean, I think, I think there has to be, I mean, for like me and where I'm at in my life. I'm curious Janelle, also, there has to be enough, like, yes, that I want to, like, spend intentional time to go and meet this person for some short, but potent container that repeats. And I think at where I'm at, that means our like souls have to be vibrating at some kind of same frequency. So and I'd say that there is like a desire, just for the sexual exploration, but there's also this evolutionary edge that I feel like me and Janelle found that also is what gives this a lot of power, and is, like, I think what is supporting it to happen.
Andrea Enright 09:26
Okay, so I want to, I really want to get to like, the structure of this, like, what does this look like? Like, how often do you see each other? Is there zero contact between? Do you text? Do you talk? Do you zoom? You're not living in the same state, potentially. So I really want, like, what are the nuts and bolts of this for our brave hearts to understand this, and we will get to the talking about sex and intimacy.
Janelle Orion 09:50
So what we came up with, John and I together on this night at this birthday party, was creating a container of three dates and. Uh, three days each, and they're not those dates are not set in stone, like we don't know when they're gonna happen, but that, we also decided to do what we called a preamble, like one overnight, like 24 hour date before everything started, just to, like, you know, ride the energy and the excitement of how we felt towards one another, but also just to see, you know, like, Is this actually a viable thing? Do we really want to spend three days three times with each other?
John Wolfstone 10:27
And I can also share that part of that idea of this commitment that we're stepping into of having three three day dates was Janelle is kind of prompting of like, well, I want to know how deep we can go. And in my professional work, being a container builder, it was like, Hey, how am I going to create a solid enough container that has enough safety and enough structure and enough clarity that we can actually unfurl? And that's why, for like me, it wasn't just, oh, let's just have one and then see, it was like, let's like, really commit to some kind of arc that has some heft, because that's going to allow our bodies, our psyches, our arrows, to really unfold and not just back away at the first point of friction. And as Janelle said, We did do a one night preamble, just to see, because, you know, it is important have a little bit more contact before we dive into such a big commitment.
Andrea Enright 11:29
Okay, so very alternative format, both consciously committed. And so when did the talks about sex and intimacy begin, and how did they begin, and what did that look like?
John Wolfstone 11:41
I mean, I can say that they really began that night, that we were, mean, we were at a place where we were not all wearing much clothes, and there was a lot of arrows flowing in the room, and we had started to kiss at some point. And I feel like Janelle, given the training she has and who she is as a very empowered sexual woman, was just clearly naming from the start what she desired. We were talking about the nature of desire and how much of a turn on that like is, and we were just from the like start, kind of navigating this very vulnerable like, I want this, and how does that feel? And what do like you want? And for like me, that's really what drew me in to be like, Oh, I really want to see how far this can, like, go. And then it's kind of been that continual dance where I feel that our desire and really creating, like, almost a vision of a desire led connection is what's been happening. So I'd say that it's like we're constantly in a conversation involving sex and like intimacy, and that the conversation itself feels like a extension of our erotic space. John,
Andrea Enright 12:56
you said in the beginning that you were that Janelle was very forward and very honest from the beginning about her attraction and her desire. She knew what she wanted, and she said it,
Janelle Orion 13:07
I feel like, actually we did, we did the rbdsm conversation, right, just like, kind of like on the fly in that moment, and that was actually the structure of the framework that we used to name our desires and name what was alive for us, and, like, our relationship formats and so brave hearts, as you know, with this conversation, what was so rich is, like, you know, John and I were just discovering each other, and that's where it was like, oh, like, here's my, my relationship format, style, way of seeing the world. And he, his matched mine. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting, you know. So that's where, like, the turn I get to kept, kept coming as the deeper we got through the questions,
Andrea Enright 13:47
was there any, ever any hesitation, I think that's with our brave hearts, or with sort of, say, the average person is talking about sex and intimacy, they're afraid to be like, well, what if that person doesn't like me? Or what if they don't feel the same? Is it okay to voice what I'm wanting, and so can you tell me how that felt, or if there was hesitation and how that went?
John Wolfstone 14:07
Yeah, on my end, there was about a year when I had Janelle on some sort of pedestal, and I was, like, totally afraid and totally felt like there was no way this woman was out of my league was the honestly of like how I felt, and it like each moment on that first night, at that second birthday that we started to connect each moment I felt very timid, and yet there was like just enough safety, or I had just enough of my own Brave Heart to just take it like a little dip, like I felt what I did, I very much titrated my own desire like I was dipping my toes in the pond ever deeper. And that really and that was its own form of courtship that I think allowed it to unfold Beautiful,
Andrea Enright 14:56
beautiful. And I just want to call it the rbdsm camera. Conversation again, stands for relationship, boundaries, desires, sexual health, meaning in this context, Janelle, do you have anything you wanted to say?
Janelle Orion 15:11
Yeah, I'm just, I'm actually really enjoying, like, like, hearing Sean's description. So I just feel like I want to, like, match him, right, like he's describing, like, the vulnerability that he had, and, like, just declaring, and he shared some of that, you know, with me, and I was like, oh, like, I noticed you that first night a year ago, you know, like I had tracked him, maybe not in the same way he did, but like, in the same way of like, oh, like, I'm I'm aware of him, I'm aware of his energy and what I felt as we were like, you know, in the drive and on that and on that night, and as this conversation happened, I felt in my own body like, Oh, I'm getting more relaxed. My heart is opening more, and I'm getting more turned on with all of that. Because if he was being so open and vulnerable, like he was saying, Hey, I'm a little bit nervous about this, or I'm feeling a little bit intimidated. And then so we got to meet with that he didn't, like, pretend that that wasn't part of what he was feeling. And then I got to be more, like, receptive, and be like, Oh, that's yeah. Like, want to say so sweet, but it was a sweetness that like penetrated my heart. So
Andrea Enright 16:22
I think I'm hearing that you were so both so vulnerable with each other, and weren't afraid to be vulnerable. And that's what established this really clear channel of communication and honesty from the beginning. Yeah,
John Wolfstone 16:35
and I can say that there's been this dance of being in the presence of desire and courtship and at the same time reflecting on what's happening, but in some kind of way that doesn't pull us out. I mean, there's kind of a way that you can reflect in a dynamic with another human be like, Oh, can we, like, have a pause and they talk about how this is and that's fine, but it can be a little bit less graceful and a little bit more awkward, and there's somehow just the dynamic between Janelle And I, where that reflection became part of the desire and the juice. I mean, you guys can't see me, but I'm having my hands kind of swirling around where there's this way that our consciousness is weaving with desire and being like, oh, like we like kissed and like, I noticed that felt this way, and what I'm wanting even more of is this like that was literally, I think, happened after our first kiss from Janelle, and it was just so graceful because she wasn't criticizing, or she wasn't necessarily having some big emotional process, but she was being like, Oh, that felt like this, and I want more of this. And that, like leading it with desire, I think, is what kept that reflection juicy and in the space of turn on yet, as she was also redirecting what was happening towards more of her pleasure.
Andrea Enright 18:04
Beautiful. I think this is a another, just really big mic direct moment for where the rubber meets the road in people's talking about sex and intimacy. Is that being able to say, I liked this, but I'd love more of this. And I remember, like you said, some of my own experience doing that and feeling courageous to say it, and my partner being surprised, and then three minutes later, him telling me, oh, you know, I really like it when you do this. And so it was, you know, kind of being a model for each other. But I also here kind of weaving in with our conversation with another Braveheart, Janelle, in that you're weaving the reflection in to the desire. And I know Janelle spoke to like one of the most important points of communication with lovers is, oh, I'm sharing, and then you're just reflecting back what you heard. So I feel like this is taking taking the reflection to another level, in that you're not only reflecting, but you're also then adding a desire on. Is that correct? Yeah, a couple questions come up for me. One, how, how did you create a safe container when you met at a party. So one, how do you do that? And were there any stumbling, awkward moments that you had to navigate with in talking about sex and intimacy with such a new person, in
Janelle Orion 19:35
terms of, like, when that moment, like, one of our deeper conversations happened, like there was people all around us, but we were just like, in our own little bubble, and we had just like, walked in and one, in on one another. But I will say, like the night could have got continued on right, like no, like sex could have been on the table, like we could have gone back to where, to our rooms, where we were each staying, like outside of, like the party space. But what I was aware of was that I was also stuck. Trying to lose presence, right? It was late, and I am not, like, a late night person, and I was able to be like, oh, like, I really feel something here, and I know that I'm at my capacity. I want to be fully present if I'm going to be with you, like, more, like, intimately. And I just don't have that right now in me. I
John Wolfstone 20:19
mean, in general, what's been part of our connection, which is so key, is not having a agenda, which I think is hard, often, especially for men. And it was clear to me that night at that party that we weren't gonna have sex then, and that what we really spent that night doing was getting into this joy of like, visioning this container and really being like, Oh, if we are going to move towards sexuality, we're gonna create a fucking awesome container that really holds it and takes it, you know, something that is maybe more in the realms of, like, sacred sexuality. If you can't see me, I'm doing the little Rabbit quotes, and that's from really having a really conscious container around it. So it was really graceful. But I'd say, you know, there, there was again, a lot of different moments of daring, like the next morning after that party I went to where Janelle was sleeping, you know, and she didn't say I could, like, go there, but I just had this like, impulse that I wanted to go and cuddle with her. And I was like, Cool, I could, I could walk in there and wake her up and she could be pissed like that. Definitely could be. It could happen. But I was like, Yeah, I'm just gonna trust this desire and this impulse, and I'm gonna move really slowly and really attuned and be also able to hold, if it doesn't work for like, her and, like, I need to, like, leave or she's been pissed. And that was a risk I was willing to take, based on the bandwidth that we had, and it was great. She was like, Thank you for coming. I actually, like, wanted you to come.
Andrea Enright 21:53
There's like, so much here. Okay, so, so one I would just first, just want to call out, like, the idea of Janelle being pissed is just so fucking laughable,
Janelle Orion 22:03
yeah, but waking me up in the morning could be the time, if it was gonna happen, that might be it. That might be it, I suppose. Oh, my God, but not by a hot guy, yeah. I
Andrea Enright 22:14
mean, no, like, and to me, this just shows, though, that you were so present with each other. You understood who the other was, right, very innately from the beginning, because you were so present. I just want to call out too that earlier that Janelle said, when you lost presence, you called that out and said, Okay, I'm not this doesn't work for me anymore, because I can tell I'm not present, right? And so whether you're doing this at a party or in the bedroom with your husband of 20 years, like knowing that that is real, and calling that out is a gift that you gave yourself and that you gave John at that time.
Janelle Orion 22:47
And another time that that happened, actually in the morning, when he came and cuddled with me in bed, he started to kiss me, and I went, like, right to my head, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm sure I've got morning breath, right? And that's what we said. I would immediately be like, I have not been and gotten, like, some mouthwash yet, right? And I was in a yurt, so I had no access to my toilet, to a bathroom, and so I was like, Oh, I'm in my head. Like, in that moment I recognized, oh, I'm not in I'm talking to myself. I'm not talking to him. So then, out loud, I said, I want to kiss you, but I'm nervous about my breath. And then he said, I'm totally fine with it. And I was like, oh, okay, then let's kiss, right? But I otherwise, I could have just like, been basically spiraling inside my head for like, the rest of the morning being like, oh my god, did I have a bad breath?
Andrea Enright 23:40
Yeah? Again, it's coming forward with the honesty being okay with that, okay. And I now want to go back to John saying that you took a risk, right? You took a risk based on what you had learned about Janelle the night before. It feels like if you had been in your head too much, you might not have taken the risk, but maybe you were in your body. Can you speak more about that?
John Wolfstone 24:01
Yeah, I was just thinking this. You know, I really think that we're both practicing, in general, in our in our lives, and definitely here, in a way of soul led relationship. And that, like, I had this impulse from my body, but there was, like, this is hard to really talk about, but there's like a deeper feeling into my soul and just which, again, it doesn't need to be so abstract, like, I think the soul is experienced through the body's desires, but I've done enough work in my life, and also with Janelle prompting From the night prior of how much she does trust desire somehow is like the voice of the Goddess. I was like, cool, like, this is coming up in my body for a reason, and I'm not just gonna push that aside. And it's not that Oh, I just was then, then, then going to do what I felt. And I also felt that like fear, but I was. Able to really feel like, cool. I can, like, hold this, like fear. And I was able to also walk myself through what that fear was, also telling me as also important information from my body of then how to approach. I didn't approach, like, blazingly throwing the door like I was, like, very quiet and like tiptoed and but I also felt like cool, like I'm coming in some kind of way that felt potent, like I was feeling my own potency, and just trusting that, and just knowing cool, I'm just gonna hold the wildness of what might happen.
Andrea Enright 25:35
So beautiful. Thanks for Thanks for sharing all this. So, so honestly, so what was the hardest thing Janelle, when it came to talking about sex and intimacy with John,
Janelle Orion 25:44
that moment came actually, in our preamble, right? It wasn't on that first night. It was now we've jumped to the container that we set for this, like overnight experience that we were gonna have. And we haven't talked a lot about that, but it was a really beautiful, very attuned night. We were actually in the mountains, in his camper, in the snow, with the moonlight. He had created prayers around our space, and, like, done some offerings and blessings. And I felt like like each like, minute we were together, I felt more and more like in my body, more and more grounded, more and more like, Oh, this is where I'm supposed to be, and this is who I'm supposed to be with for this moment. So as our night went on, we had, you know, a whole experience. And, you know, as you're listening to John talk, like anyone listening is like, oh, that sounds a little bit like Janelle, right? Like it seems like he not. There's a match that I that I have with John, that I have not felt with someone else from like the body, the heart and the spiritual level. So in that way, I felt myself like opening and we did end up having sex, and I had this feeling of, like, Oh my gosh. Like, that was like, the best sex of my life, not just for this lifetime, but probably for all of my lifetimes, because the version of me that had revealed itself, like, like, who I was, right? Like, I know myself so well that like I was being met in that way. But I said that, and as soon as I said it, I was like, Oh, that's not true for him. You knew by his reaction, I knew by his reaction that it wasn't true for him. But, and I'm not gonna call out who, but I'm gonna call out one of our other male brave hearts who came to one of our conversations, who shared that, like he was totally in love with his woman, and like she kept saying it was the best sex of her life. And he was like, Yeah, it's like, nice. But, you know, wasn't that in what I remembered in that moment in this trailer with John, like in, you know, feeling the bliss of this. I was like, oh, and that's okay. Like, this is my experience, and this is, like, the threshold I'm needing to cross. He doesn't have to be crossing it with me and stop there for a second. Like, okay, so the pleasure is in you, which we just talked about with Carmen, another interview, you know, expert that we interviewed, the pleasure is in you, but you just said he doesn't have to be crossing this threshold with me. And I'm just like, I need a judge's ruling on this that, like, if I can think about the best sex of the life I've had, I'm like, Um, no, I pretty much wanted that person to be having the best, like, I wanted them to be crossing the threshold with me. That's just a desire I have. And so I think I'm hearing that you're okay without it. But I did ask you What was hard, and you're saying this was a little hard. So keep going. Yeah. I mean, it was definitely like, I was like, in my my life experience was like dropping in in real time, right? And so I wasn't like, oh, he said that, or he didn't actually even say anything initially, but I just knew energetically that that was true, and so I was having to use my like tools to be like, okay, and I landed there. And I'm not saying like that. I don't want that to be true at some point, right? And in fact, like part of the agreement that John and I have, as far as our comment relationship, we have a couple of like pillars that we're holding, and one of them is to have mind blowing sex, right? And it felt like, for me, that this was like, oh, okay, this is a starting point, but this is not an ending point.
John Wolfstone 29:32
I want to say, I think, for like me, that moment was definitely probably the most difficult moment of our sexual intimacy journey, because just a little backstory, I created this whole container of this one night journey, of this, of this, like preamble, like I was, and that was part of our agreement was that I was going to be fully in the masculine and she just wanted to receive so I liked it. Everything like, do. Details. It was beautiful. I loved it, but I was still kind of carrying this inner pressure of, like, making this a certain way, and there was actually for me and myself. And I want to say also, part of the beauty is that we didn't have sex for like seven or like eight hours, like, you know, and like, just, just even that, we had a whole arc of a time of like, relating and sharing and playing and experiencing. So that's what I say, that was quite beautiful. And then getting to the moment of sexuality, I actually realized, for me, there was a bit of a vulnerability gap of like things I was carrying that I think a part of what led me to not have it be like mind blowing, because I think there's part of me that was a little bit not fully present or, like, disengaged at some small level, even at a place of, like, evolution, maybe I haven't crossed it as a man, because I'm not sure I've ever been so, like, fully empowered to be in my in my masculine, like holding So I was already in a very new terrain. So when Janelle said that, and then I realized, like I was having a different experience. I was like, fuck. Because how this usually goes is either the intimacy, like weekends, because I'm not gonna say anything, or I say it and she's gonna be like, like, dejected, and then I'm gonna have to hold her like emotions for the next like, five hours, which is like, not what happened, but I was fucking like, Oh, damn, this sucks,
Andrea Enright 31:29
beautiful. No, that's, I think that's really important, because this very moment is what happens when there's a mismatch. What do we do? Do we weaken the intimacy by saying nothing does and then the other one freak out, feel rejected. So what happened? What did you say? So
John Wolfstone 31:48
what happened? I mean, I'm not sure I said anything right away, but I definitely, like shifted the energy and I was like, Janelle, there's because there it was like that and a few other things. I realized I was having some, like, withholds that there weren't necessarily things that happened that was like, oh, I need to, like, clear that it was, like, deeper soul level things like, essentially, Janelle reminds me a lot of my biggest ex, just part of the attraction field. And there are certain things, like patterns I was seeing that I'm like, if I'm just gonna be fully honest, I want to name what I'm seeing that was really hard for me about my ex that I see here with Janelle. So I shifted. So we went on like, an hour long journey where I just poured out my like heart, trying to tell her in this very gentle way, both that the sex was not the best of my life, and that there's these things that I'm tracking that are like, edgy. And I told her for an hour, and she was like, Oh, great. At the end of all of it, she was just like, Oh, thank you. I know, like, I can just tell I just, like, gone on this whole arc that she was like, Oh, you didn't have to, like, make it such a big deal. Like, that's essentially, after I shared it, I was like, Oh, really, because I really tried to be like, like, eloquent and gentle. And she was like, oh, that's all fine,
Andrea Enright 33:09
but attention, I'm sure intention appreciated, though, like, you know, like you were like, Okay, let's do this in a gentle way. But it sounds like you knew you could tell by her response that she was okay, sitting in her own pleasure and knowing it was hers,
John Wolfstone 33:21
yeah, fully. And then that opened the door, because then we made love again, and it was like, for me, much higher. And the thing I also really want to say, because I also see sex as like, not just the moment of like intercourse, I really felt that whole 24 hour journey was a erotic like journey. And the next morning, I was still feeling some layer of whatever thing I had been carrying, whatever like place I reached in my own soul's journey. And it was a very young part, you know, as it is with us, and something to do with like my mom and my like, infancy, and me and Janelle were sitting on this log. There was sunlight. It was beautiful. Like, maybe we had some, like, tobacco, I don't really know. Maybe, maybe we were there to, like, pray, and I just shared like, Hey, there's this really deep part that goes back to my childhood. And Janelle just immediately was like, how about we create a moment where I just, like, Hold you as a mother. And she did. I just fucking cried and, like, laid in her like lap and cried, and she held me holding this like archetypal mother figure, which is super vulnerable when I'm trying to be the like potent man that gives her a good sexual time. And it was so beautiful. And it was really the like layer I needed to peel to, like, get to that point where the erotic connection could be mind blowing for like me, and that was so beautiful that after all of that, we got to that place, and I didn't feel any like, smaller or emasculated or less. Potent afterwards, actually, more so. And then we just left the container both feeling so juiced. Like, oh, when can this happen them again? It was so beautiful. Oh,
Janelle Orion 35:10
my God. I mean, there's just so much there and, like, I mean, because isn't Janelle amazing? I can totally see her doing this, right? She's like, great. I'm just gonna slip into the mother archetype and hold you and let you cry. And she totally knows how to do it like I could just imagine her holding that space. And so the overarching message is that the more vulnerable you got, deeply another layer, no, another layer. Oh no, there's still another layer of vulnerability, the more pleasure it led to. I have another question. But Janelle, do you have something else you want to say about that? But John and I are talking about, I want to acknowledge are very advanced skills that this right is like both of our world and both of our training. And I was able to see for the first time, like my own mastery of moving from, oh, here's a woman who's like, totally hot for this man. Oh, let me go into this different archetype where I'm the mother, because I'm recognizing this is an energy that needs to clear in order for us to go deeper into what we want to create. And there was I got to like witness myself and my in my mastery, in that like John provided that experience. But I also want to acknowledge, to bravehearts listening that sometimes you hire professional to help you navigate that, which I am right, because to do it with your partner is actually, can be really, really challenging. So I also just want to call that out. Yeah, I just want to
John Wolfstone 36:35
also name on that that the container Janelle And I have, that she's not my partner. It's not hitting those same buttons of like, attachment that it would if there's if I was, like, this is the woman I could have kids with. Like, it's just very clear, like, Janelle is 5050, almost one, yeah, almost 150 and I'm, I'm like, 38 that is just such a dynamic that, like, well, we are really here for soul growth that allowed a certain kind of safety in that container to like, go there, which is why I really recommend, if you can having a diversity of different people to connect with. That doesn't always have to be the like, the life partner, you know, because that can make it so tight and hard to like, really unfold. That's so much pressure. Just
Andrea Enright 37:23
even the last thing you said there, like, not everyone has to be the one, the long term one like this person is helping your soul grow. And this is person is doing something different. And I think there is that's really a mindset shift that's quite different from what our culture tells us. Can either of you talk about any specific tools that you used, apart from rbdsm, when you were talking about sex and intimacy? I
Janelle Orion 37:52
feel that in that moment, John described of like, oh, he went off and like, tried very carefully to describe, like, what ultimately, his desires were that I I was just using reflective listening, like, oh, like, you know, like, here's everything you just said. And this is what I understood it to
John Wolfstone 38:13
be. And I'd say that in my end of that, like, one of the big revolutions I got from Janelle as a tool that had already been on about, but it didn't land so clearly until I connected with Janelle was how to be in feedback loops that are led by desire and not fall into this Coaching dynamic. Because in that conversation, there was some things I wanted to say or feedback to Janelle. But what's tricky is that, especially as a man, it's so we're so trained to do it in this like coaching way, where I'm like, I see these things that you could like work on, but actually more vulnerably, I'm desiring something, and so for like me to really see that first layer of like, I'm seeing these things that like, this critical part of me is like, essentially noticing and then doing the work to root it in like. And I'm desiring this and bring it that way, like that tool, I think, could be one of the most important tool shifts any man could walk with, because it feels like a very in some ways, feminine led tool or journey. And I think men, the way men are conditioned, really struggle with that, like a little bit more embodied way of naming our reflection with our own embodied desire. So
Andrea Enright 39:40
I think I'm hearing feedback loop led by desire, but I want to call out. We'll see if where this conversation goes. But I've heard you a couple times reference like, man. Oh, this typical for a man, typical for a man. And that's just like, really not true for me. And the few examples that you've used, and so do. You mean masculine, or do you mean man? Maybe I want to clarify. I think
John Wolfstone 40:04
what I'm trying to clarify, thank you for that is like people who had male conditioning, like male social conditioning in this culture, and what that social condition is. So it's nothing to really do with necessarily my body or my gender, which is a whole fluid thing anyways, but more like the way, because I am in and appeared to be in a male body, I was socially conditioned in the patterns of that social conditioning in whatever we want to name, the mass cultural schmuck we are in. That's what I'm talking about. That there's a lot of that conditioning that I think, especially for those who had that as men or in male bodies, need to work through, that I feel is still, even in some of the most conscious circles, or Neo Tantra, this or that I still see a lot of that not fully being examined or especially for men dealt with, I honestly think that people conditioned as women or in female bodies are like there's more cultural evolution that's happened that I've seen as somebody who's a man and a male leader around really unpacking and dealing with that conditioning.
Andrea Enright 41:20
Okay, thanks for clarifying. Did you ever have any mismatch of desires that came up? Obviously, you had a mismatch in experience. But did you have a mismatch in desire that came up? And how did you navigate that,
Janelle Orion 41:37
once we got into this flow of okay, here's my desires, here's my desires. He named his desire, which was that I get into, like, get more fit, and in that moment, this is the next, like, the next morning, I felt myself, and again, like, with a lot of experience, go into what the fuck is this? Like, a patriarchal conditioning. Does he not think I'm attractive, like, like, does he not like how I look like, like? Is he trying to change me? Does he not accept me for who I am? Like, I had all of these like thoughts running through my head, and then, like, you know, who does he think he is telling me, like, what to do with my body? And in that moment, I like, felt all of that rise. And then I asked him a question. I said, like, well, what would that do for you? And his response was, like, do you do whatever you want? Like, whatever, like, lights you up to, like, work out, but like, just like, you know, like, spiritually, energetically, like, physically, like, it'll impact everything. And so I took a deep breath, and I said, I'll reflect on that. And I just sat with it. And I sat with it for days. Actually, we didn't talk about it again, but what I was like sitting with and for me, what I ultimately came to and I have a pattern of reacting when someone tells me to like, you know what they want, what they desire, and I'm like, reacting to like, Why the fuck are you like, trying to tell me what to do? And when I sat with this, I was like, Oh, I had not worked out for the past nine months. I just started working out again. And I was very intentional not working out. But I was also aware that as, oh, why my body does want to come back into, like, a different level of fitness? And I was like, like, excited to see, like, what things were coming up for me, for that I wanted to work out in and so I actually sat with it. And I was like, Oh, his desire is actually my desire, too. I two, right? Like, I really thought often he said, like, do whatever you want. Like, he wasn't like, you have to bike, or you have to, like, lift weights, or you have to do Pilates, pilates, or anything like that. He was just, like, move your body. And I knew in my heart that I wanted to be moving my body. And then I got to just realize, Oh, he's just, in a way, he was reflecting to me myself, but I it took me a few days to land in it and see it, that it was actually for my, not only my own desire, but also for my own benefit. And that, that he had my like, the way that I see this, and John, you can obviously like, respond to this is that, like, he actually had my best interest in mind. Like, no one is gonna tell me it's a bad idea for me to work out, you know, like that was probably like, my hardest piece of our dynamic was, like, having him name a desire that it took me a while to recognize was actually coming from a open hearted place that actually served me and I also wanted it. I'm
Andrea Enright 44:41
still like, I'm like, a little activated from it. I'm just like, I don't know, like, not everybody is, like, suited to work out, like, even though, of course, I'm working out too, and it feels really good. Of course, it's good for you. But I've noticed my own judge, like, you know, putting it on people. And I'm just like, come on, you need to work out. Like, it's good for you, but I don't know, you didn't work out for nine months. Janelle And like, wasn't right for you for a while. It doesn't matter if I'm activated, but I think it I'm just like, tracing Janelle own like, oh, I can see why that was. Like, I'm not sure about that. And then coming to a place of like, oh, I actually want that too, which seems really conscious. I
Janelle Orion 45:16
just also want to name something is that I had just had this really beautiful experience with him. I've chosen him as a person to like explain me so I am trusting his intention. I also had to like land there that I was like, I've already trusted him with all of this other stuff. Why would this suddenly be different?
John Wolfstone 45:35
Right? And that's profound of Janelle to have that maturity and that not just fall into the place of the wound. And I want to say this after 24 hours, after, you know, weeks of building on this practice of desire. And again, I think what's different Andrea than the way, I think it probably comes up as an activation in you, is that part of what I was learning from Janelle, that was that shift I was trying to talk about out of that male conditioning, is that I didn't put it on her. I said, this is my desire, and that there's something and that in that, I think part of the art of desire is that she doesn't have to, like, there's for sure going to be moments in our dynamic, in any dynamic where just one of us is going to name desire, the person is going to be like, I'm not a yes to that in this moment, in this way. And so I also knew like, fully, but I but it got to the level for me of this soul thing and this connection we both have to the Goddess. We really trust life. If I'm really trusting the truth flowing in me, like, who am I to withhold truth? It's not even necessarily my truth. It's coming from somewhere else. And I'm trusting that as part of the evolutionary like potential of the soul medicine that we that we have. And the thing is, I also desire the same kind of desires from her or from the other, because I think it's so beautiful when the people we are sharing love with can help call us up into our greatness. And when it comes in that, like, clean way of from their desire, and they're not going to hold it over us, or, like, make us bad or wrong for not, and that I don't think I had any of that energy of, like, you don't look good enough now, or you should have I was just like, Oh, I'm just seeing this possibility of this glow of you, like working now, and I'm feeling myself get juiced on that desire, and I was gonna share that with you and like, and it was, it was probably the like, riskiest thing that I like said, but that is the edge of like, evolutionary connecting that we are doing, and it is super advanced. Like, would not recommend starting there. You know that it really was me checking in with my own body being like, Is this safe to like, say now, and I wasn't gonna say it if my own body wasn't telling me it was like, attuned to the field that we had, I
Andrea Enright 48:13
think you said it's not the place necessarily to start, and yet you talk about this being advanced, but this doesn't have to be an insult to a partner. This is just a vision that you're having, and if it's a vision you're having, if you can present it that way, by all means, give it a shot. Would you agree with that?
John Wolfstone 48:33
Yeah, I think maybe I was trying to say is, like, I could imagine that happening in like, like, therapy or in some kind of, like, more conflict style. And maybe that's also fine, but there's this is way me and Janelle have, like, in this realm of desire, kept it really juicy, and never really feels like we're processing or we're fighting. So I'm not like, and that's what I'm trying to also even unpack here is, like, how did we do that? Because it wouldn't have been that fun if I had been like, this is something I need to bring and and I want to say that's also totally like, valid. Like, maybe I would be partnered with somebody where my life is, like, depending more on them and them not taking care of their like, body is a bigger deal. That needs that kind of space, and that's totally fine, but in this instance, it was just kind of coming on this wave, this river of desires, and I think that's part of what we're trying to unlock in this quest to have mind blowing sex. Is like, how vulnerable Can we really get with our desires? Because it's this. It's just going to get edgier, beautiful.
Andrea Enright 49:44
Well, we're almost at the end of our time. This has been really, really unique and beautiful to hear both sides of such an alternative relationship. John, can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing? Wing. I understand there is a film in the works, and I'd love to hear more about that, and how brave hearts might tap into that.
John Wolfstone 50:08
Thank you. Yeah, part of this life transition I'm in is that this film I spent the last 10 years making, which is called the village of lovers, which is about the Tamera ecovillage in Portugal, which is one of the world's leading eco villages. And they are world leading because of their work around like intimacy and vulnerability and truth in love and sexuality, and that being the basis of building really a culture of trust and peace. So that story, their story, is in that film. The film just came out about a month ago. You can watch it at the village of lovers.com and I'm just kind of riding the energy of that coming out into the world, and that's definitely the best place to connect with me right now, and like, get a receive some of what that journey was, and some of the medicine of that place, beautiful.
Andrea Enright 51:05
Thank you. And is there anything either one of you want to say?
Janelle Orion 51:11
I just want to thank John, who is actually his idea to be on the podcast on that same date, on that same preamble. He was like, if you're gonna really be vulnerable. You should have me on your podcast. I was like, I am really vulnerable. So fine,
Andrea Enright 51:26
you can be on the podcast. Here we are amazing, amazing. Commend both of you so much for just like completely being this open talking about your relationship in real time. Thank you so much. Okay, Bravehearts, you heard it directly from Janelle and John. Lots of tools for talking to your partner, but intimacy and sex and we love you. We'll see you next time. Love
Janelle Orion 51:53
you. Bravehearts, thanks for listening. Thank you all.
Andrea Enright 51:58
Hey, Bravehearts, looking for permission, work with us. We offer Braveheart coaching. Follow us on Instagram, meet us in real life at a Braveheart conversation. Subscribe to our newsletter. Do all this and more at our website. Permission to be human. Dot live. You.
